[Grammar] Were vs Was

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gina Geremia

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
Great Britain
When writing about a movement, which is correct:
If the Civil Rights Movement were not successful..., or
If the Civil Rights Movement was not successful...

My instinct tells me the use of 'was' is accurate as it is referring to a single movement. However, I have seen it written using 'were' in a professional document.
 

Tdol

Editor, UsingEnglish.com
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Member Type
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
If it's a second conditional, then were is the favoured form in formal language. If it's not a conditional, then it could be singular or plural depending on the preferences of the variant. What's the wider context?
 

Gina Geremia

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
Great Britain
If it's a second conditional, then were is the favoured form in formal language. If it's not a conditional, then it could be singular or plural depending on the preferences of the variant. What's the wider context?

Hi Tdol,
Thank you for your reply. The sentence reads as follows:
"IF THE civil rights movement were as unsuccessful as the environmental movement has been, Rosa Parks' granddaughter would still be sitting in the back of a segregated bus."
.



 

SoothingDave

VIP Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
It's subjunctive. A "contrary to fact" hypothetical.
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
"IF THE civil rights movement were as unsuccessful as the environmental movement has been, Rosa Parks' granddaughter would still be sitting in the back of a segregated bus."
.




***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Hello, Ms. Geremia:



1. I believe (repeat: believe) that most people today would not use the so-called subjunctive when referring to the

past.

2. As we now know, the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's was not unsuccessful. It was very successful. We are talking

about reality.

3. According to the greatest grammarian of all time (my opinion, of course):

"The past subjunctive ... for reference to the past is much less common than the present subjunctive for reference to the present and future, for it is contrary to the now almost universally recognized principle that the past subjunctive refers to the present or future."

And he was writing in the year 1931!

4. That great scholar does say that in older English, the past subjunctive "were" was, indeed, used in sentences such as yours ( as SoothingDave reminded us).

5. I do not know how much you know about the subjunctive (I know very little), but it is still used here in the United States

for the present and future. But many books advise against using it to refer to past events.



James


P.S. Your sentence has nothing to do with singular or plural. As you know, the verb depends on the word "movement." For example, "The Civil Rights movement is studied in the public [state] schools." / "If the Civil Rights movement were taught in your school, would you take the class?" [As Tdol reminded us, some English speakers would use "was" here. Just as some people say, "If I was rich, I would fly to the moon," instead of "If I were ...."]


James

That great scholar was Professor Dr. George Oliver Curme. He explains this on pages 424 - 425 in the second volume of his 1931 masterpiece A Grammar of the English Language.
 

Gina Geremia

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
Great Britain
Wow, this explains it all very well. Thank you, James. I do not know much about the subjunctive. As a matter of fact, I enjoy writing a great deal but when it comes to explaining grammar, I draw a blank most of the time. This is exactly why I joined this forum.

Thank you all for your replies.

-Gina
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
"IF THE civil rights movement were as unsuccessful as the environmental movement has been, Rosa Parks' granddaughter would still be sitting in the back of a segregated bus."
.

I think there is a mistake here. It should read, "If the civil rights movement had been ..."
 

Gina Geremia

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
Great Britain
I agree. My problem is, I can't explain why. Is it to keep consistent with '...as the environmental movement has been...' part of the sentence? And what is the 'had been', is it past subjunctive like 'were'?
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I agree. And what is the 'had been?

***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Hello, Ms. Geremia:


1. Yes, I agree that "had been" is better, too.

2. I think that we are dealing here with a so-called "mixed conditional."

a. "If the movement had been unsuccessful [third conditional], her granddaughter would still be riding in the back of the bus." [second conditional].

3. If it were ("were"!) all third conditional, it would read: "If the movement had been unsuccessful, her granddaughter would still have been riding in the back of the bus." Presumably, that is not the meaning intended by the author of the sentence.



James
 

emsr2d2

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
Let's say I have an uncle who is still alive. He is a plumber. I could start a sentence with "If my uncle were a teacher ..." because he exists and it is perfectly possible to consider/imagine a different profession for him. In fact, he could still become a teacher.

Now assume my uncle is dead. He was a plumber. I would not be able to say "If my uncle were a teacher ..." I would have to say "If my uncle had been a teacher ...", or "If my uncle had not been a plumber ..."

The Civil Rights movement has happened. It's over. (Please don't take that as a political statement!) Therefore, anything we say about it has to refer to a hypothetical past not a hypothetical present or future.

The Civil Rights movement was successful. Had it not been successful, the world would be a very different place.
The Civil Rights movement was successful. If it had not been successful, the world would be a very different place.
 

JarekSteliga

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
The Civil Rights movement has happened. It's over. (Please don't take that as a political statement!)

The Civil Rights movement was successful. Had it not been successful, the world would be a very different place.
The Civil Rights movement was successful. If it had not been successful, the world would be a very different place.

NOT A TEACHER

I understand this represents the "the third mixed conditional". However I have to say, that I do not find it in any ordinary course of grammar. Why?
 

Tdol

Editor, UsingEnglish.com
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Member Type
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
It's commonly described- the past condition + present result is in most descriptions of mixed conditionals that I know.
 

JarekSteliga

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
Is there a difference in meaning between "the past condition+present result" type of conditional and the plain third conditional? In other words, do, "If it had not been successful, the world would be a very different place." and, "If it had not been successful, the world would have been a very different place.'' mean different things? If they do, what is that difference?
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
"If it had not been successful (in the past), the world would be a very different place (now, in the present."

"If it had not been successful (in the past), the world would have been a very different place (in the past).''
 

Gina Geremia

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
Great Britain
Thank you very much, James. This does clear things up further.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top