[Grammar] a question about anaphors

[speed011ttl]

Q1) If the pronoun 'them' has an antecedent 'the visitors' ,
is the following sentence grammartical?

The visitors were taking away with them as fine an impression

as they had left behind.


Q2) If 2)them has an antecedent 1)They,
is the following sentence grammatical?


1)They took back with 2)them also the memory of a charming woman.



ps) as I am an EFL learner, on the first face, I think that two question sentencesi are ungrammatical because of not using anaphors (i.g., themselves). Am I right? Plz give me explanation

 

[orangutan]

As far as the anaphors are concerned yes, because "them" is not part of an argument of the verb ("with them" is an adjunct).

(Your first example, however, has one "as" too many.)

 

[BobK]

:up: To clarify, the 1st and 3rd 'as' are OK; the 2nd is not.

 

[speed011ttl]

As far as the anaphors are concerned yes, because "them" is not part of an argument of the verb ("with them" is an adjunct).

(Your first example, however, has one "as" too many.)

First of all, thanks to your generous attention of the question.
I'm the almost first visitor in this site, and also I am not used to doing it.
While I was so being happy about your comment, suddenly I clicked the 'sending the message for making friends'.
I am very sorry to embarrass you! My real intention is to having more information about the question I wrote.

----> you said, "yes." It really confuses me due to my stupid deed. I asked two questions: the first is located in the beginning section, the second is 'ps part'.

I guess that you think the original sentences is grammatical since the pharase 'with them' is adjunt.
your comment is wonderful!!
However, Can you explain the sentence quoted from my dictionary "He went into retreat and trid to resolve the conflicts within himself"?

I infer that adjunts 'by himself, for himself, and so on' in the usual sentences is idim or fixed expression in your mother tongue.

I really hope to see my curiosity!!

 

[speed011ttl]

:up: To clarify, the 1st and 3rd 'as' are OK; the 2nd is not.

Thanks to your kind information!!
Your comment helps me to awaken myself within ingnorant sleeping.

 

[lauralie2]

Can you explain the sentence quoted from my dictionary "He went into retreat and tri[e]d to resolve the conflicts within himself"?

Reflexive 'himself' works in that example because it is part of the verb's argument structure:

• He...tried to resolve the conflicts (that were) within himself.

The phrase 'within himself' is part of a larger phrase, a that-phrase, which modifies the verb's object 'conflicts'.


In the examples below, the phrase 'with them' is not part of the verb's argument structure, which is why reflexive 'himself' doesn't work:

• The visitors were taking away with them as fine an impression. :tick: grammatical
• The visitors were taking away with themselves as fine an impression. :cross: ungrammatical

• They took back with them also the memory of a charming woman. :tick: grammatical
• They took back with themselves also the memory of a charming woman. :cross: ungrammatical

 

[speed011ttl]

Reflexive 'himself' works in that example because it is part of the verb's argument structure:

• He...tried to resolve the conflicts (that were) within himself.

The phrase 'within himself' is part of a larger phrase, a that-phrase, which modifies the verb's object 'conflicts'.


In the examples below, the phrase 'with them' is not part of the verb's argument structure, which is why reflexive 'himself' doesn't work:

• The visitors were taking away with them as fine an impression. :tick: grammatical
• The visitors were taking away with themselves as fine an impression. :cross: ungrammatical

• They took back with them also the memory of a charming woman. :tick: grammatical
• They took back with themselves also the memory of a charming woman. :cross: ungrammatical

Before saying something, i'm exalted by your warm advice.
As I am a studuent who has learned 'Binding Theory made by Chomsky(1981) or Reimsdijk Williams (1986), in my personal opinion, I have another opinion about it.

No matter what the phrase 'with them' is (e.g., adjunts or not arguments of a verb), the posted sentence satisfies the rules
therefore, I adhere to it.
Of course, I am considering the fact the rule is not perfect from such examples (the phrases "He likes a picture of himself", " Marlowe resented the book about himsel")


**About using Anaphor**
Chomsky(1981)
A c-commands B, A and B are coindexed,

Reimsdijk Williams (1986)
A is the govening category for B if and if A is the minimal category(NP, or S) containing B, a governor B, and a SUBJECT accessible to B (SUBJECT = subject or AGR)

 

[lauralie2]

...,the posted sentence satisfies the rules [i.e., A is the gove[r]ning category for B if and if A is the minimal category(NP, or S) containing B]....

B is not contained:

[With B them] [S The visitors took away as fine an impression as they had left behind]


​

Of course, I am considering the fact the rule is not perfect from such examples (the phrases "He likes a picture of himself", " Marlowe resented the book about himsel[f]")

The examples are not problematic:

[S Marlowe resented the book (that was) written about himself]

​

Reflexive 'himself' is contained within S.

 

[speed011ttl]

B is not contained:

[With B them] [S The visitors took away as fine an impression as they had left behind]


​

The examples are not problematic:

[S Marlowe resented the book (that was) written about himself]

​

Reflexive 'himself' is contained within S.

I really appreciatie it. It's lucky to meet you!!
But, the explanation of the sentence He...tried to resolve the conflicts (that were) within himself is ungrammatical from my point of view since the reflexive himself doesn't have its antecedent within NP or S by abiding by the rule I mentioned.

[S Marlowe resented the book s'[(that was) written about himself]]
Zooming-in the relative clause s'[that were within himself]
as compared wiith the sentences John(1) believes that Jane loves him(2)
(1) = (2)

Nobody(3) who knew him(4) would ride with Fred.
(3) and (4) is not equal.

Moreover, I think that the sentence "He took good memories with himself"
---> s[He v''[V'[took N''[N'[N[good memories]]]] with himself]]]


Following your argument, "at each other" in the sentence "The men will shoot the arrows at each other" is out of S sphere because its function is adjunct I guess ( I don't know What it really is....PLZ understanding I have different mother tongue.

While I am talking with you, I am knowing more and more the fact that there is no sentences I insisted in searching google site and the world. My real intention is the desire in a student to learn more.
Plz help me!!

 

[lauralie2]

...the sentence He...tried to resolve the conflicts (that were) within himself is ungrammatical from my point of view since the reflexive himself doesn't have its antecedent within NP or S....

OK. I understand what you are saying, and if your interpretation of the rule is as you see it, then 'within himself' would be an adjunct and so omitting it shouldn't change the sentence's meaning, but it does:

• He went into a retreat and he tried to resolve the conflicts (there).

The resulting sentence reads, he tried to resolve the conflicts in the retreat. The meaning we want is that he tried to resolves the conflicts within himself. The phrase 'within himself' serves to narrow the meaning of 'the conflicts', which means it is not being used as an adjunct. It is part of S.



_____________
The underlined portion is a passive construct:

Marlowe resented the book that was written about himself by Max. :cross: <passive>
Marlowe resented the book that was written about him by Max. :tick: <passive>


Max wrote a book about him (about Marlowe) :tick:
Max wrote a book about himself (about Max) :tick:


​

In the next example provided, 'him' is non-reflexive, so I am not sure why we are looking at this construct:

John believes that Jane loves him.

Compare reflexive: John believes that Max loves himself wherein 'himself' attaches to the closest noun (Max).


​

In the next example provided, 'him' is also non-reflexive:

Nobody who knew him would ride with Fred.

Compare reflexive: Nobody/not one person who knows himself wherein 'himself' attaches to the closest noun.


​

Moreover, I think that the sentence "He took good memories with himself"
---> s[He v''[V'[took N''[N'[N[good memories]]]] with himself]]]

OK. I get it, but the meaning it expresses is rather strange:

• He took good memories with himself
  • Meaning, when he left, he took along good memories and himself.

 

[TheParser]

Q1) If the pronoun 'them' has an antecedent 'the visitors' ,
is the following sentence grammartical?

The visitors were taking away with them as fine an impression

as they had left behind.


Q2) If 2)them has an antecedent 1)They,
is the following sentence grammatical?


1)They took back with 2)them also the memory of a charming woman.



ps) as I am an EFL learner, on the first face, I think that two question sentencesi are ungrammatical because of not using anaphors (i.g., themselves). Am I right? Plz give me explanation

********** NOT A TEACHER **********


Speed,


You probably already know this, but just in case that you do not,

I thought that you would like to know how Mr. Michael Swan

in his Practical English Usage tells ordinary speakers like me to

understand this matter. (The ideas of Mr. Chomsky are way

over my head; I barely understand high school-level grammar.)

Basically, Mr. Swan says:

Use common sense.

He says that after prepositions of place [he apparently considers

"with" a preposition of place], we "often" use personal pronouns

[such as "me"] when a reflexive meaning makes sense.

Here is his example:

She took her dog with her.

Mr. Swan comments: She could hardly take her dog with somebody

else.

So I guess that one says "They took back with them fond

memories" because (in his words): They could hardly take back their

memories with some other persons.

*****


P. S. But he says that one says "She is very pleased with

herself" because she could be pleased with somebody else.




THANK YOU

 

[speed011ttl]

********** NOT A TEACHER **********


Speed,


You probably already know this, but just in case that you do not,

I thought that you would like to know how Mr. Michael Swan

in his Practical English Usage tells ordinary speakers like me to

understand this matter. (The ideas of Mr. Chomsky are way

over my head; I barely understand high school-level grammar.)

Basically, Mr. Swan says:

Use common sense.

He says that after prepositions of place [he apparently considers

"with" a preposition of place], we "often" use personal pronouns

[such as "me"] when a reflexive meaning makes sense.

Here is his example:

She took her dog with her.

Mr. Swan comments: She could hardly take her dog with somebody

else.

So I guess that one says "They took back with them fond

memories" because (in his words): They could hardly take back their

memories with some other persons.

*****


P. S. But he says that one says "She is very pleased with

herself" because she could be pleased with somebody else.




THANK YOU

Hello, a new cyber friend

I am scare of you since you seem to read my mind.

I perfectly thought your saying "after prepositions of place [he apparently considers "with" a preposition of place], we "often" use personal pronouns

[such as "me"] when a reflexive meaning makes sense"


I always have a doubt whether a prepositon 'with' would be one of the prepositions such as about, behind, in front of, on which is written on my grammar book written by a writer in Korean who read Mr. Michael Swan's book. In this book, a prepositon 'with' is cannot found.

Thanks your good comment.
Merry Christmas ^^

 

[speed011ttl]

OK. I understand what you are saying, and if your interpretation of the rule is as you see it, then 'within himself' would be an adjunct and so omitting it shouldn't change the sentence's meaning, but it does:

• He went into a retreat and he tried to resolve the conflicts (there).

The resulting sentence reads, he tried to resolve the conflicts in the retreat. The meaning we want is that he tried to resolves the conflicts within himself. The phrase 'within himself' serves to narrow the meaning of 'the conflicts', which means it is not being used as an adjunct. It is part of S.



_____________
The underlined portion is a passive construct:

Marlowe resented the book that was written about himself by Max. :cross: <passive>
Marlowe resented the book that was written about him by Max. :tick: <passive>


Max wrote a book about him (about Marlowe) :tick:
Max wrote a book about himself (about Max) :tick:


​

In the next example provided, 'him' is non-reflexive, so I am not sure why we are looking at this construct:

John believes that Jane loves him.

Compare reflexive: John believes that Max loves himself wherein 'himself' attaches to the closest noun (Max).


​

In the next example provided, 'him' is also non-reflexive:

Nobody who knew him would ride with Fred.

Compare reflexive: Nobody/not one person who knows himself wherein 'himself' attaches to the closest noun.


​

OK. I get it, but the meaning it expresses is rather strange:

• He took good memories with himself
  • Meaning, when he left, he took along good memories and himself.

To my respectable friend if I dare call you like this
Thanks very much!!
I undersand what you say
I will never forget all of things between you and me.
Because I never met any teacher ever like you.
You have given warmth and kindness to me even though we don't know each other. If you lived the neighborhood of me, I would have a chance to treat you on my food or a small Chirstmas present or thing.
Instead of imagined-in my mind things, I would like to wish you eternal happiness and well-being.

Bye... Merry Christmas ^^

 

[Pedroski]

Chomsky changes his mind a lot, and often contradicts what he himself has said. Generative grammar is only a theory, not necessarily a viable explanation of language.

The visitors were taking away with them/themselves as fine an impression as they had left behind. Grammatical.


Q2) If 2)them has an antecedent 1)They,
is the following sentence grammatical?


1)They took back with them/themselves also the memory of a charming woman. Grammatical.