and dreamed of England

[Anna232]

I read that if both the independent clauses are short, then some writers may choose to omit the comma before "and". He is great, and works hard. "And works hard" is also an independent clause.

But a comma must be used before "and" when it starts a dependent clause. The conjunction must split the third item of a list. "I ate, slept, and dreamed of England. "And dreamed of England" is dependent.

What I don't understand is that "And dreamed of England," is not an independent clause? Why isn't it independent?

Comma - The Grammar Guide

When should you use a comma? Is it grammatically correct to put a comma before "and"? Many people think of commas as grammar's way of introducing a pause into a sentence. While that may be true for how writers and speakers read commas, you can't simply throw a comma any place you pause in a...

prowritingaid.com

 

[5jj]

But a comma must be used before "and" when it starts a dependent clause. The conjunction must split the third item of a list. "I ate, slept, and dreamed of England. "And dreamed of England" is dependent.

What I don't understand is that "And dreamed of England," is not an independent clause?

It is. That side is not helpful.

 

[Anna232]

It is. That side is not helpful.

Do you mean in "He is great, and works hard" "and works hard" is a independent clause.
But "and dreamed of England" is also independent. "I ate, slept, and dreamed of England." Right?

 

[Annabel Lee]

I read that if both the independent clauses are short, then some writers may choose to omit the comma before "and". He is great, and works hard. "And works hard" is also an independent clause.

But a comma must be used before "and" when it starts a dependent clause. The conjunction must split the third item of a list. "I ate, slept, and dreamed of England. "And dreamed of England" is dependent.

What I don't understand is that "And dreamed of England," is not an independent clause? Why isn't it independent?

Neither "and works hard" nor "and dreamed of England" is an independent clause. Neither of them is a dependent clause, either. What follows the coordinating conjunction in each case -- "works hard," "dreamed of England" -- is simply a verb phrase.

You have coordinated verb phrases, not coordinated clauses, in "He is great and works hard" and in "I ate, slept, and dreamed of England." Each of those sentences consists of only one clause, which is independent. Clauses have subjects and predicates. If there isn't a subject, there isn't a clause. The website you linked to doesn't seem to grasp this.

Here is an example with coordinated independent clauses: "[He is great,] and [he works hard.]" Here's another: "[I ate], [I slept], and [I dreamed of England]." And here are examples of sentences with coordinated dependent clauses: "She said [that he was great] and [that he worked hard]." "Although [he is great] and [he works hard], he still didn't get the job."

 

[Anna232]

Neither "and works hard" nor "and dreamed of England" is an independent clause. Neither of them is a dependent clause, either. What follows the coordinating conjunction in each case -- "works hard," "dreamed of England" -- is simply a verb phrase.

You have coordinated verb phrases, not coordinated clauses, in "He is great and works hard" and in "I ate, slept, and dreamed of England." Each of those sentences consists of only one clause, which is independent. Clauses have subjects and predicates. If there isn't a subject, there isn't a clause. The website you linked to doesn't seem to grasp this.

Here is an example with coordinated independent clauses: "[He is great,] and [he works hard.]" Here's another: "[I ate], [I slept], and [I dreamed of England]." And here are examples of sentences with coordinated dependent clauses: "She said [that he was great] and [that he worked hard]." "Although [he is great] and [he works hard], he still didn't get the job."

Neither "and works hard" nor "and dreamed of England" is an independent clause. Neither of them is a dependent clause, either. What follows the coordinating conjunction in each case -- "works hard," "dreamed of England" -- is simply a verb phrase.

You have coordinated verb phrases, not coordinated clauses, in "He is great and works hard" and in "I ate, slept, and dreamed of England." Each of those sentences consists of only one clause, which is independent. Clauses have subjects and predicates. If there isn't a subject, there isn't a clause. The website you linked to doesn't seem to grasp this.

Here is an example with coordinated independent clauses: "[He is great,] and [he works hard.]" Here's another: "[I ate], [I slept], and [I dreamed of England]." And here are examples of sentences with coordinated dependent clauses: "She said [that he was great] and [that he worked hard]." "Although [he is great] and [he works hard], he still didn't get the job."

So this is how we can tell if it is a verb phrase or an independent clause. If there is no subject it is a verb phrase. Right?
I wrote my own examples.
Verb phrases:
1. She is lazy and misses all her classes.
2. We went shopping, paid the bills, and visited our friends.

Coordinated independent clauses:

1. She is lazy, and she misses all her classes.
2. We went shopping, we paid the bills, and we visited our friends.

 

[Annabel Lee]

So this is how we can tell if it is a verb phrase or an independent clause. If there is no subject it is a verb phrase. Right?

Your examples show that you have the right idea.

 

[Anna232]

Your examples show that you have the right idea.

Can I remove commas before "and" in 1 and 2? And use them before "and" in 3 and 4?

1. "[He is great,] and [he works hard.]"
2. "[I ate], [I slept], and [I dreamed of England]."
3."She said [that he was great] and [that he worked hard]."
4."Although [he is great] and [he works hard], he still didn't get the job."

 

[Annabel Lee]

Can I remove commas before "and" in 1 and 2? And use them before "and" in 3 and 4?

1. "[He is great,] and [he works hard.]"
2. "[I ate], [I slept], and [I dreamed of England]."
3."She said [that he was great] and [that he worked hard]."
4."Although [he is great] and [he works hard], he still didn't get the job."

You are proposing the following:

1a. He is great and he works hard.
2a. I ate, I slept and I dreamed of England.
3a. She said that he was great, and that he worked hard.
4a. Although he is great, and he works hard, he still didn't get the job.

All of the sentences are possible as punctuated. I don't think anyone would say that there must be a comma between the two baby independent clauses of (1a). Regarding (2a), the absence of a comma before the third independent clauses will only be disliked by people like me, who prefer the so-called Oxford comma. Regarding (3a) and (4a), they will be disliked by people who believe that commas should never be used merely to set off a phrase for emphasis.

 

[jutfrank]

Regarding (2a), the absence of a comma before the third independent clauses will only be disliked by people like me, who prefer the so-called Oxford comma.

I certainly count myself as someone like you, Annabel. In my view, the lack of a comma there is hard to justify. When listing items like this, there is an obvious natural pause in speech, which the Oxford comma serves wonderfully effectively to represent. Why would one be so cruel to his reader as not to use it and obscure the rhythmical flow of the sentence?

Regarding (3a) and (4a), they will be disliked by people who believe that commas should never be used merely to set off a phrase for emphasis.

What do you mean here? Who are these people? What's the emphasis? If the commas are used here, it's to show the writer wants the reader to pause at those points, for whatever reason that may be. Without the commas, there's no pausing.

In 4a of course, the second comma is necessary since the sentence begins with a dependent clause. The pause in speech then between the clauses is a necessary verbal way to show this dependence. If the clauses were reversed, where the dependent clause follows its dependant (I call this the 'default' logical order), then the comma would not be necessary.

 

[Annabel Lee]

What do you mean here? Who are these people? What's the emphasis? If the commas are used here, it's to show the writer wants the reader to pause at those points, for whatever reason that may be. Without the commas, there's no pausing.

These are people like you and me. I agree with you that the comma in the sentence She said that he was great, and that he worked hard merely signals a pause, as does the first comma in the sentence Although he is great, and he works hard, he still didn't get the job. Neither of those commas is necessary. They are optional.

For people who believe commas should never be used except to clarify those aspects of syntactic structure that they are conventionally used to clarify, the abovementioned commas would be somewhat odious. I am not one of those people. You do not seem to be one of them, either. You and I believe that some commas can be used merely to signal pauses.

Rather than speaking of pause, I spoke of emphasis, but I could just have easily have spoken of pause. In my opinion, the effect of such pause-signaling is to contribute prosodic emphasis to the phrase. It's not the type of emphasis that is achieved by stressing words with the voice, but it's still emphasis. Pauses around a phrase set it off, crispen it, highlight it.

(i) He ate an apple, a cracker, and some pudding.
(ii) He ate an apple and a cracker and some pudding.
(iii) He ate an apple, and a cracker, and some pudding.

Sentence (i) features typical syntax and series punctuation for Oxford-comma lovers. Sentences (ii) and (iii) feature less typical syntax and punctuation, and many learners may be astonished to learn they are perfectly fine. What do the commas in (iii) do? They add pause. What does the pauses do? They emphasize. The elements of the series are less emphatic in (ii).

Of course, we can't go hog-wild with prosodic commas. By convention, English writers can no longer separate subject and predicate with a comma, even if we hear a pause there; nor can we separate the verb and the direct object with a comma, assuming the direct object follows the verb immediately. The commas below are just wrong nowadays, pauses notwithstanding:

(iv) The man in the blue shoes, is wearing a funny-looking hat.
(v) The man in the blue shoes is wearing, a funny-looking hat.

 

[jutfrank]

Thanks for your response. It's perfectly clear now what you meant. Of course, I agree with everything you say.