by telling workers that they packed boxes

[Verona_82]

Hello,

I'm reading a text from Business Benchmark, CUP, p.126, and don't seem to understand the grammar of one sentence. The context is as follows:

The study is based on interviews with managers at more than 720 manufacturing companies in America, Britain, France and Germany. The answers were given a score between 1, the worst, and 5, the best, in each of 18 categories. ... An American manufacturer that communicated financial targets by telling workers that they packed boxes until lunchtime to cover overheads and after that for profit scored a full 5.

Does 'that they packed boxes" mean "that they should pack boxes"?
Can the past simple be replaced with the subjunctive "...by telling workers that they pack boxes"?

Thank you.

 

[birdeen's call]

Can the past simple be replaced with the subjunctive "...by telling workers that they pack boxes"?

That depends on what it's supposed to mean in my opinion. The subjunctive version means "telling workers to pack boxes", whereas the past tense means "informing workers that they packed boxes".

There seems to be some disagreement on these things though, so I'm not sure I'm right.

 

[White Hat]

An American manufacturer that communicated financial targets by telling workers that they packed boxes until lunchtime to cover overheads and after that for profit scored a full 5.

Manufacturer: Ok, guys, we're now covering ours overheads.

later

Manufacturer: Alrite, and now we're packing them for profit. Good job! Way to go, guys!

 

[Raymott]

Does 'that they packed boxes" mean "that they should pack boxes"?
Not to me.
Can the past simple be replaced with the subjunctive "...by telling workers that they pack boxes"?
No.
Thank you.

The sentence doesn't make sense to me. I can't see how they are communicating "targets" by telling workers what they've done in the past.

 

[5jj]

Does 'that they packed boxes" mean "that they should pack boxes"?
Can the past simple be replaced with the subjunctive "...by telling workers that they pack boxes"?

Thank you.

No. he manufacturer is communicating a fact to the workers, "You pack boxes (or whatever other job it is you do) until lunchtime just to generate income to cover costs. After that time the money generated by your labour is profit". Indirect speech - The manufacturer told the workers that they packed...

 

[Verona_82]

:-D I get it now!
Thank you!

 

[birdeen's call]

No. he manufacturer is communicating a fact to the workers, "You pack boxes (or whatever other job it is you do) until lunchtime just to generate income to cover costs. After that time the money generated by your labour is profit". Indirect speech - The manufacturer told the workers that they packed...

Can't we use the subjunctive with"tell" when we're talking about giving orders?

 

[White Hat]

Can't we use subjunctive with"tell" when we're talking about giving orders?

It looks like here we should've used the subjunctive mood here. But there is a difference between telling someone to do something and explaining what it is all about.

 

[birdeen's call]

It looks like here we should've used the subjunctive mood here. But there is a difference between telling someone to do something and explaining what it is all about.

There is a difference. But Raymott and fivejedjon said the subjunctive was wrong and I don't understand why.

 

[5jj]

There is a difference. But Raymott and fivejedjon said the subjunctive was wrong and I don't understand why.

As I explained in post #5, Verona's sentence is a reported fact. I interpreted it as the manufacturer explaining the facts of life to the workers - "As you know, you pack boxes all day - that is what you do. Well, you may be interested to know that the work you do (packing boxes) until lunchtime covers the overheads. The work you do after lunchtime brings in the profits.".

If he had been giving an order: "(You must) pack boxes until lunchtime....", this would have been reported as: he told them to pack boxes/he ordered them to pack boxes/he told them that they should pack boxes. I don't think that it can be reported as he told them that they pack boxes.

 

[birdeen's call]

As I explained in post #5, Verona's sentence is a reported fact. I interpreted it as the manufacturer explaining the facts of life to the workers - "As you know, you pack boxes all day - that is what you do. Well, you may be interested to know that the work you do (packing boxes) until lunchtime covers the overheads. The work you do after lunchtime brings in the profits.".

If he had been giving an order: "(You must) pack boxes until lunchtime....", this would have been reported as: he told them to pack boxes/he ordered them to pack boxes/he told them that they should pack boxes. I don't think that it can be reported as he told them that they pack boxes.

It's interesting. I can't find any examples of the subjunctive after "tell" so you must be right. I thought it should be correct by analogy with "order" as in

So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

(Acts 10:48)

 

[White Hat]

It's interesting. I can't find any examples of the subjunctive after "tell" so you must be right. I thought it should be correct by analogy with "order" as in

So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

(Acts 10:48)

What confused you and others and caused you to bring it up is that a boss would normally just order his subordinates to do something.

And the verb "to order" can be used in a subjunctive mood structure.

"Contrary to popular belief, the subjunctive has not died completely, and some surviving usages would adorn not only feature writing but also some news reports. The mood was historically used with verbs of volition and command ("he ordered that he be brought in" and "she wishes she were at home") and with conditional clauses ("He agreed provided he be not quoted"), and it is not incorrect to use them today."

 

[Verona_82]

Well, 'tell' can also be used to give orders. I believe 'should' can be omitted in all of the examples below.

He ordered that he (should) be brought in.
I recommended that you (should) move to another office.
He suggested that she (should) get another job.

But it doesn't seem to work with 'tell'. It's really interesting.
Perhaps it has something to do with the necessity for a direct object after 'tell'. :roll:

He told her that she should smoke less.

 

[birdeen's call]

Well, 'tell' can also be used to give orders. I believe 'should' can be omitted in all of the examples below.

He ordered that he (should) be brought in.
I recommended that you (should) move to another office.
He suggested that she (should) get another job.

But it doesn't seem to work with 'tell'. It's really interesting.
Perhaps it has something to do with the necessity for a direct object after 'tell'. :roll:

He told her that she should smoke less.

It's fascinating to me.

He told her that she smoke less.

seems a perfectly logical construction to me. I have never seen or heard it and I agree it sounds strange, but I can't see any reason for its being incorrect other than that it's not used. It's a pretty good reason though.

I've done my best to find at least one example of such usage and it seems that no one had thought of it before you did. Searching is a bit difficult though because the verb is so common.

 

[Verona_82]

I sometimes think that learning a foreign language is like being a very young child who's exploring the big world around him or her If you don't ask or try, you won't acquire any knowledge. This thread made me a bit more knowledgeable; I hope it's been useful for others too.

 

[birdeen's call]

Perhaps it has something to do with the necessity for a direct object after 'tell'. :roll:

You may be right. When "order" takes a direct object, it seems the subjunctive is impossible/very rare. This construction is usually used

order + object + to-infinitive

I was able to find only one sentence that looks subjunctive in COHA.

By it I charge and order you that, since it is so just to make him compensation, you grant him that which he should have, in accordance with what you consider due him for his work, past and present, in your affairs and negotiations.

(1903)

Google has more examples, most of which are from Islamic texts for some reason.