[Grammar] Can I put an indefinite article before a possessive noun?

[ManabuS]

Ah, thank you, tzfujimino! I didn't notice your post #15 when I posted my last one. Your dialogue really helped me!
And thank you for your answers.

I understand "an a friend's house (a one friend's house)" is impossible. But I was wondering if you could tell me why it is?
If "a + friend's" put together is an adjective I think "a + [adjective] + noun" is indeed okay. Maybe just because of cacophony?


Thank you.

 

[Matthew Wai]

"a + friend's" put together is an adjective

Who said this? I could not find this in this thread except in your posts.

 

[tzfujimino]

Ah, thank you, tzfujimino! I didn't notice your post #15 when I posted my last one. Your dialogue really helped me!
And thank you for your answers.

I understand "an a friend's house (a one friend's house)" is impossible. But I was wondering if you could tell me why it is?

I'm afraid I don't know why. That's how it's used, and we have to accept it.

If "a + friend's" put together is an adjective I think "a + [adjective] + noun" is indeed okay. Maybe just because of cacophony?

I think the issue here is whether the "a" in "a friend's house" modifies "friend" or "house". Isn't it what you are asking?


Thank you.

Tz

 

[Matthew Wai]

I think the issue here is whether the "a" in "a friend's house" modifies "friend" or "house". Isn't it what you are asking?

I think 'friend's' functions as an adjective modifying 'house' while 'a' refers to 'house' instead of being part of the adjective.

 

[Tarheel]

'I visited two friends' house' suggests the two friends are the co-owners of the house.

Is that correct?

Yes, it is. (While that might work in print, if I was going to say it I would say: "I visited a house belonging to two friends.")

 

[ManabuS]

Who said this? I could not find this in this thread except in your posts.

I think 'friend's' functions as an adjective modifying 'house' while 'a' refers to 'house' instead of being part of the adjective.

As GoesStation explained, isn't it "the house of a friend"?

[...] a friend's house = the house of a friend. [...]

I think the issue here is whether the "a" in "a friend's house" modifies "friend" or "house". Isn't it what you are asking?

Yes, basically so, as I questioned before. I'd like to know whether 'a' refers to 'friend's' or 'house.'
And I guess that it can't refer to 'friend's' because if it refers to it the phrase would be terribly ungrammatical -- the two articles in a row -- if the noun 'house' needs an indefinite article, too.
This is just my reasoning. I'd like teachers to confirm or to correct, if that is wrong.

 

[Matthew Wai]

a friend's house = the house of a friend.

As GoesStation explained, isn't it "the house of a friend"?

As GoesStation explained below, possessive nouns are functioning as adjectives, but I don't think the article 'a' is part of them, as 'a' is not part of the adjective in 'a large house'.

possessive nouns are functioning as adjectives.

 

[Matthew Wai]

Nouns do not 'function as' adjectives

I trust the following more than the above.

Possessive nouns function as adjectives.

possessive nouns are functioning as adjectives.

a noun acting like an adjective to describe the other noun

'We can use a noun as an adjective when it precedes a noun that it modifies.'── quoted from http://usingenglish.com/glossary/noun-as-adjective.html Term: Noun as Adjective

 

[Weaver67]

Not a teacher.
------------------

Being a modifier is possibly the only thing they may have in common, but that does not make them absolutelly equal. Here, I totally agree with Piscean.

There are many ways to modify a noun. Adjectives is but one of them.

 

[ManabuS]

Ah, thank you very much for your thorough explanations, Piscean! They're really insightful and helped me understand these difficult topics (although apparently they might be simple.)

Now I fully understand how it works: "a friend's" is a possessive and it can be recast into "the house of a friend"; "children's" is a modifier, so "children" don't possess that song. The modifier is functioning like an adjective. If so, I think I also understand GoesStation's post #7.

Please allow me to ask just one more question to clarify.
Altogether I understand the comments like this:
Now that I know "a friend's" is a possessive, I can't say "I visited an a friend's house," even if I should tell people that I visited one house that belongs to a friend, like one can't put an indefinite article before a possessive like "Luke's house."
On the other hand, one can put a/an before something like "children's" so that it refers to the noun right after 's because in this case X's is a modifier, not a possessive nor an adjective.
Is this understanding correct?

Thank you very much again.

 

[Matthew Wai]

Being a modifier is possibly the only thing they may have in common, but that does not make them absolutelly equal.

No one said they were 'absolutely equal'. The wording is 'function as', 'acting like' and 'use ... as', which make sense to me.

 

[MikeNewYork]

I agree. Nobody said they were absolutely equal. What was said is that something was functioning as an adjective. And it was.

 

[Weaver67]

OK, stand corrected on this one -- indeed, nobody said exactly that.

But the following makes the impression, at least to me, that the author of the quoted text has tried to draw such a broad comparison:

As GoesStation explained below, possessive nouns are functioning as adjectives, but I don't think the article 'a' is part of them, as 'a' is not part of the adjective in 'a large house'.

 

[ManabuS]

OK, stand corrected on this one -- indeed, nobody said exactly that.

But the following makes the impression, at least to me, that the author of the quoted text has tried to draw such a broad comparison:

I agree. It makes the impression also on me. It was important for me to understand that they're not absolutely equal. And it helped me. But there hadn't been any clarification like that before Weaver67's post. I almost understood that X's was an adjective and 'a' wasn't able to refer to X's like it can't in 'a large house.'

 

[MikeNewYork]

The word adjective refers to a part of speech. The part of speech method refers to the role of a word or words in a sentence. Some words are classified as adjectives. But there are other words, phrases, and clauses that function as adjectives in a sentence.

 

[Matthew Wai]

the author of the quoted text has tried to draw such a broad comparison:

The comparison is about their functions. Having the same function does not denote being absolutely equal.

 

[MikeNewYork]

And they all function as adjectives.

 

[Matthew Wai]

3. I live in the house opposite the pub. (Preposition phrase functioning as modifier.)

I think you can write a dissertation to prove me wrong, but you can't possibly stop people from calling it an adjective prepositional phrase.

 

[MikeNewYork]

People can call it whatever they call it, but there is no doubt that it functions as an adjective.

 

[MikeNewYork]

There is no transformation needed. It is based on function. And the function is clear to most of us.