[Grammar] don't sign nothing

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Soup

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re: Is this right?

Here are some interesting uses and sources for don't say nothing.
... [Italian] Non dire niente!, meaning Don't say anything!, but literally closer to Don't say nothing!

Grammar: A Student's Guide - Google Book Search (p136)
_____________________________
24. Which sentence is written in Standard English?

a. Cecilia hasn’t no extra time this term.
b. Holly will not show Cami none of her sketches.
c. We didn’t tell Grant anything about the surprise.
d. Don’t say nothing about the dance to Martin.

GrammarUsage201-210
___________________________
From London Tests of English
DON’T say nothing or very little. Examiners can’t give marks to candidates who don’t speak.
____________________________

From the movie Bambi:
Thumper: He doesn't walk very good, does he?
Mrs. Rabbit: Thumper!
Thumper: Yes, mama?
Mrs. Rabbit: What did your father tell you this morning?
Thumper: [clears throat] If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all.
____________________________
"... it makes elegant reading but it don't say nothing ..." Sinclair Lewis Babbitt (1922)

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of ... - Google Book Search
____________________________
:lol::lol:
Why do folk just come on to correct other peoples grammar? ... If you don't know what you are taling about - don't say nothing at all! ...
BBC SPORT | Euro 2008 blog - 116k -
:lol::lol:
PLEASE, readers... all I ask is that you do a SPELL / GRAMMAR CHECK next time ..... to "If you haven't got something nice to say, don't say nothing at all". ...
EP Review: A Thousand Cures - 100k
:lol::lol:
... And be sensitive with them like don't say nothing stupid or nothing. ...
How to approach a girl you don't kniow -
_____________________________
There is nothing wrong with simple and colloquial speech. The ear is a good judge of language. It doesn't like ugly sounds; it shuns needless complexity; it invites directness. We should, I think, be forced to listen to everything we write.

WORD & MEANING: Making words mean something again. By Sam Smith.
 

stuartnz

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re: Is this right?

Here are some interesting uses and sources for don't say nothing.
... [Italian] Non dire niente!, meaning Don't say anything!, but literally closer to Don't say nothing!

Grammar: A Student's Guide - Google Book Search (p136)
_____________________________

Interesting links, thanks. I came across another example of mathematical usage being used a yardstick for linguistic usage today. It seems that to mathematicians, a labyrinth is not a maze. What seems relevant about this in connexion with the "double negative = positive" mantra is the apparent assumption that maths should be the yardstick by which language is measured and the source of the rules by which language is governed. Interesting.
 

e2e4

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re: Is this right?

Stuart NZ, after I followed the link, you had posted in your third last post, I pushed the thank button because, in the link, I found the sentence which Mrs. Maggie Scott quoted from a Bob Dillan's song

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.

How do I see it?

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm. No more!
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm; no more.
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm, no more.
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.

From some other song

....No fool, no more.

For me, the form and the sense are the same.

No more is the confirmation of the negation expresed in the first part of the setnence.

But it doesn't sound the same as the double negation in the elliptical sentences such this one

Don't say nothing.

This kind of the ellipticals are too short that so called double negation would work properly in it.

So, as a learner from Bosnia and after studied this matter for a while, I say this

Try to avoid the double negation in some kind of the very short ellipticals and all will be all right.

:roll:

I am serious this time.
 

stuartnz

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re: Is this right?



This kind of the ellipticals are too short that so called double negation would work properly in it.

So, as a learner from Bosnia and after studied this matter for a while, I say this

Try to avoid the double negation in some kind of the very short ellipticals and all will be all right.

:roll:

I am serious this time.

I am not sure that I understand this, but I wonder if I could trouble you to use a different colour for your writing? That teal is quite hard to see, at least on my screen.
 

Soup

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re: Is this right?

What seems relevant about this in connexion with the "double negative = positive" mantra ...
Could you point out where you see that? (From what I can tell, the posters seem to be discussing definitions, not the language of math.)


 

stuartnz

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re: Is this right?

Could you point out where you see that? (From what I can tell, the poster are talking about definitions, not math.)

It was the quote from the Wiki article:
The term labyrinth is often used interchangeably with maze, but modern scholars of the subject use a stricter definition. For them, a maze is a tour puzzle in the form of a complex branching passage with choices of path and direction; while a single-path (unicursal) labyrinth has only a single Eulerian path to the center. A labyrinth has an unambiguous through-route to the center and back and is not designed to be difficult to navigate.

I read that as assuming the primacy of a mathematical definition over one developed through ordinary language use, and saw that as similar to the notion that because in maths "double negative=positive" it must be so in language too. It is getting late on Sunday evening here, so if my neuron is not firing on both cylinders, it's probably time for me to let it rest.
 

Soup

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re: Is this right?

It was the quote from the Wiki article:


I read that as assuming the primacy of a mathematical definition over one developed through ordinary language use, and saw that as similar to the notion that because in maths "double negative=positive" it must be so in language too. It is getting late on Sunday evening here, so if my neuron is not firing on both cylinders, it's probably time for me to let it rest.
:-? OK.

If it helps at all, the last time that I took math, two negatives produce a positive. ;-)
 

RonBee

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re: Is this right?

don't sign nothing
You ain't got nothing to lose.

Those are typical American slang, aren't they? :)
Yes. And "nothing" is typically pronounced without the "g" ending.
 

stuartnz

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re: Is this right?

:-? OK.

If it helps at all, the last time that I took math, two negatives produce a positive. ;-)

Yes, and that seems to lie at the crux of the matter for those who wax wroth at double negatives in English language. It is that way in maths, but that doesn't mean it must be that way in language. Many who insist that "double negative = positive" argue that it is the "logical" meaning, and point to its validity in mathematics as "proof" that it must be applied in language too.
 

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re: Is this right?

I am not sure that I understand this,

It is because of my poor English which is not easy to understand.
It's also for I am from Bosnia and you are from a strategic geopolitical Aotearoa region. :p

but I wonder if I could trouble you to use a different colour for your writing? That teal is quite hard to see, at least on my screen.

In relation with my last post

I ain't gona work on Maggie's farm, no more. :tick:
No fool, no more. :tick:
Don't talk nothing.

Stop talking. :tick:

I didn't mean you should stop talking. :mrgreen:

In addition

You ain't got nothing to loose.
You ain't got a thing to loose. (this would be my way) :tick:

a thing in such case replace nothing and mean the same actually, I think.
The double negation is there, but hidden. (I'm sure this can't be understood too :mrgreen:)

Finally
I ain't got any time to waste. :tick:
 
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RonBee

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re: Is this right?

Yes, and that seems to lie at the crux of the matter for those who wax wroth at double negatives in the English language. It is that way in maths, but that doesn't mean it must be that way in language.
Exactly! Math is math and language is language.
:up:
Many who insist that "double negative = positive" argue that it is the "logical" meaning, and point to its validity in mathematics as "proof" that it must be applied in language too.
But they are wrong.
:)
 

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re: Is this right?

Yes, and that seems to lie at the crux of the matter for those who wax wroth at double negatives in English language. It is that way in maths, but that doesn't mean it must be that way in language. Many who insist that "double negative = positive" argue that it is the "logical" meaning, and point to its validity in mathematics as "proof" that it must be applied in language too.
I reluctantly break my promise not to post on this thread again (I had hoped that the thread had run its course and would end.), but the comments about language logic and mathematics force me to comment further. Actually I posted this argument earlier on but there now are so many posts and many recent post have talked about the logic issue, so I decided to repeat my previous comments. (If I want to stretch it a little, I can claim that technically I am not breaking my promise. :-D)


The suggestion that the claim that a double negative is logically positive receives support only from math is false. You don't need support from math.

Just consider language.


"Say nothing." means 'don't say anything', 'keep your mouth shut'.
So how can "Don't say nothing" logically also mean 'don't say anything'? You've added a negative and somehow the meaning doesn't change? It's not logical. It's as illogical as claiming that 'I have money.' and 'I don't have money.' have the same meaning. Whether you add a negative to a sentence that already has a negative or add a negative to a sentence without a negative, you can't say that the meaning is logically the same.

Of course nobody can stop people from using "Don't say nothing." when they mean 'Don't say anything.', but it is hardly logical.
 

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Re: Is this right?

What do you think "I can't get no satisfaction" means?

:)
 

stuartnz

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re: Is this right?

Exactly! Math is math and language is language.
:up:
Originally Posted by stuartnz
Yes, and that seems to lie at the crux of the matter for those who wax wroth at double negatives in the English language. It is that way in maths, but that doesn't mean it must be that way in language.
Exactly! Math is math and language is language.
:up:
But they are wrong.
:)

Thanks for the "the" - I was going to write "language", changed my mind at the last second and said "English", and omitted the article. :oops:
 

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Re: Is this right?

What do you think "I can't get no satisfaction" means?

:)
I know what it is meant to mean, but we are talking about the logic of language/grammar and everyone knows where song lyrics rank as examples of correct grammar. :)
 

stuartnz

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Re: Is this right?


That's not bad, but for a string of negatives, I still think Douglas Adams is pretty hard to beat:
"That young girl," he added unexpectedly, "is one of the least
benightedly unintelligent life forms it has been my profound lack
of pleasure not to be able to avoid meeting."

The next paragraph calls that a "labyrinthine string of negatives", but perhaps it was mazelike rather than labyrinthine. :)
 

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Re: Is this right?

Now I am sure I don't know why I don't know nothing when I don't watch european but american movies. :cry:
 

stuartnz

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Re: Is this right?

Now I am sure I don't know why I don't know nothing when I don't watch european but american movies. :cry:

I think that Soup's wonderfully concise and simple summary from page 1 of this thread deserves repeating:


  • Do people say it? Yes.
  • Is it considered Standard English? No.
And now I ain't got no need to say nothing more about it. ;-)
 

e2e4

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Re: Is this right?

Do people pay double for the same thing? No
Do people double the negation in the same sentence? Yes

If they paid for the words they use they for sure wouldn't do it.
 
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