had been trapped

[keannu]

Are these really predictive not counterfactual? The runner surely know he was not in sauna, but just as a metaphor he said it? I learned "as if" is an exception in counterfactual conditional, but sometimes you can use "I felt like I hade been trapped", so I can't tell the difference. Is it really predictive, not counterfactual?

ex)I had finally done it. All my life I had dreamt of winning an Olympic gold medal. And doing so in my home country of Austrailia was thrilling. Crossing the finish line was a huge relief; it felt as though I had been trapped in an extremely hot sauna and the door had suddenly been opened...

 

[5jj]

It is certainly not predictive. As he had not been trapped, then you can use the label 'counterfactual' if you must have a label. The writer had a feeling similar to one he would have experienced if he really had been trapped.

 

[keannu]

It is certainly not predictive. As he had not been trapped, then you can use the label 'counterfactual' if you must have a label. The writer had a feeling similar to one he would have experienced if he really had been trapped.

But about a year ago, I remember talking about the characteristics of "as if" very seriously, and you and other teachers said "as if" is a predictive expression.
ex) He talks as if he were a doctor. => We don't know if he is a doctor.

 

[5jj]

But about a year ago, I remember talking about the characteristics of "as if" very seriously, and you and other teachers said "as if" is a predictive expression.
ex) He talks as if he were a doctor. => We don't know if he is a doctor.

If I said that that was predictive, I was having an off day.

Could you provide a link to the thread? I can't find it.

 

[Barb_D]

I remember once learning that "You like you've seen a ghost" and "You look as if you've seen a ghost" were not the same, and one was correct, and the other was not. However, I don't know any Americans who observe a difference here.

 

[keannu]

If I said that that was predictive, I was having an off day.

Could you provide a link to the thread? I can't find it.

I searched with the keywords like "keannu" and "as if", but couldn't find it, It seems to have been deleted. I'm really sorry it was...

 

[5jj]

I searched with the keywords like "keannu" and "as if", but couldn't find it, It seems to have been deleted. I'm really sorry it was...

The closest I came was this: https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/138826-she-looks-if-she-sick-conditional-factual.html

 

[keannu]

The closest I came was this: https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/138826-she-looks-if-she-sick-conditional-factual.html

Yes!!!! In that thread, the teachers said there's little difference between "as if he is" and "as if he were", so "as if he were" is almost a predictive one. Over the last one year I have taught my students the grammar books' part related to it is wrong, and you should take it as an uncertainty. If it's wrong, I have lied to my students so far....

 

[5jj]

For one thing, keannu, none of us used the wprd 'predictive' in that thread. You are making unjustified leaps again.

 

[keannu]

For one thing, keannu, none of us used the wprd 'predictive' in that thread. You are making unjustified leaps again.

Maybe my term is not proper, I can't find the most proper term, but both you and me understand what it means. Maybe it's uncertainty. And in the following, it was said that it can't be counterfactual.

1.She talks as if she is rich. (factual-present)
The 'talking is a presented as a fact. The 'being rich' is presented as an appearance. We don't know whether she is rich or not.

2.She talks as if she were rich (counterfactual-present)
I said previously that I don't think this is possible but, after due consideration, I now feel that some people might say it. The possibility of her being rich is less real than in #1, but I don't feel that it is totally excluded, so the word 'counterfactual' is inappropriate.

He acts as if he is/was/were the boss. - We do not know for certain whether he is the boss.=> And also in this, it's uncertainty.

 

[5jj]

Maybe my term is not proper, I can't find the most proper term, but both you and [STRIKE]me[/STRIKE]understand what it means.
Actually, I don't always understand what you mean when you use the word predictive.

Maybe it's uncertainty. And in the following, it was said that it can't be counterfactual.

1.She talks as if she is rich. (factual-present)
The 'talking is a presented as a fact. The 'being rich' is presented as an appearance. We don't know whether she is rich or not.

That is not saying explicitly that it can't be counterfactual.

2.She talks as if she were rich (counterfactual-present)
I said previously that I don't think this is possible but, after due consideration, I now feel that some people might say it. The possibility of her being rich is less real than in #1, but I don't feel that it is totally excluded, so the word 'counterfactual' is inappropriate.
Neither is that.

5

 

[keannu]

5

In your material of conditional, conditional1 is classified as "predictive conditional". and "predictive" is usually for the future, but because of the basic form, it was used like that, I guess. In that conditional future. present, past are all included, so "predicitive" means "supposition, guess, speculation" on the condition we don't now the truth.

I remember the heating discussion about the "as if" last year, and that time I concluded "as if" is an uncertainty, but now I feel I have to include another possibility other than that.

 

[5jj]

In your material [STRIKE]of[/STRIKE] on conditionals, conditional1 is classified as "predictive conditional".

No it is not. Yet again, you are presenting your interpretation as my words.

In my paper, I give seven examples of what I call 'predictive conditionals', and note, "Of these seven examples, only one fits into the traditional view of First Conditionals"

I also note: "We saw in [5] If you heat ice, it will melt and [12a] [When we shared a flat],if Andrea cooked, I would wash up,that factual conditional sentences can have the same form as predictive or hypothetical conditionals. Clearly, if one form can be interpreted in two different ways there is potential for misunderstanding."


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[keannu]

No it is not. Yet again, you are presenting your interpretation as my words.

In my paper, I give seven examples of what I call 'predictive conditionals', and note, "Of these seven examples, only one fits into the traditional view of First Conditionals"

I also note: "We saw in [5] If you heat ice, it will melt and [12a] [When we shared a flat],if Andrea cooked, I would wash up,that factual conditional sentences can have the same form as predictive or hypothetical conditionals. Clearly, if one form can be interpreted in two different ways there is potential for misunderstanding."

1. I think by this sentence in your material, you included exceptional cases into predicitive conditional. Anyway, I feel predictive conditional is about something which hasn't been proven to be true or false, uncertainty. And with that view, I called as-if-clause predicitve, but if it's not proper, I'd like you to teach me a proper one.
"However, [2] to [11], along with many other possible combinations of tenses and modals, are naturally occurring predictive conditionals.

2. How do I have to interpret this definition last year? And how do I have to interpret "as if" from now on? Can "as if" sometimes be counterfactual and other times uncertainty? Is it flexible? Or is there some more profound logic I still don't understand?
He acts as if he is/was/were the boss. - We do not know for certain whether he is the boss.

 

[5jj]

1. I think by this sentence (However, [2] to [11], along with many other possible combinations of tenses and modals, are naturally occurring predictive conditionals) in your material, you included exceptional cases into predicitive conditional.

Why do you keep adding your interpretations to what I (and others) say? I cannot claim to be the clearest of writers, but I generally try to say what I mean - and nothing else. I wrote "Naturally occurring".

Anyway, I feel predictive conditional is about something which hasn't been proven to be true or false, uncertainty.

The uncertainty is provided by the if-clause. the prediction is about the situation resulting from the realisation of the possibility in the if-clause.

And with that view, I called as-if-clause predicitve, but if it's not proper, I'd like you to teach me a proper one.

I think we have enough labels already!

2. How do I have to interpret this definition last year? And how do I have to interpret "as if" from now on? Can "as if" sometimes be counterfactual and other times uncertainty? Is it flexible? Or is there some more profound logic I still don't understand?
He acts as if he is/was/were the boss. - We do not know for certain whether he is the boss.

It's not a definition. Read that thread again. The words I have underlined are quite important.

What you appear not to understand is not 'profound logic'; it is that we cannot give glib, all-embracing answers to these questions.

 

[keannu]

Before I ask you a question, I really swear I'm hundred percent purely seeking for the answer, not having any kind of rebellious mind. I'm just full of desire to know the truth or answer. I found the following,so I'd like to you what you think about this. Does it lead to the concept of counter-factuality if you used past form?

AS IF, AS THOUGH | Grammaring
Clauses that start with as if/as though express doubt or uncertainty if they are followed by an unreal tense. Otherwise, they express that the statement is true or might be true.

He looks as if he knows the answer. (= He seems to know the answer, and he probably does.)
He looks as if he knew the answer. (= He seems to know the answer, but he doesn't.)​

In the past tense both sentences will read as follows. Mind that knew in the second sentence does not change into had known.

He looked as if he knew the answer.​

The meaning of this sentence, therefore, can only be deduced from the context.
If we talk about a hypothetical past situation, the past perfect tense is used.

You seem as if you hadn’t slept for three days. (= You seem not to have slept for three days, but I know you have.)
He grinned as though he’d been drinking for hours.​

 

[5jj]

I think I have said all that I can usefully (or perhaps not so usefully :roll say on this. Others may have something to add.

 

[birdeen's call]

I searched with the keywords like "keannu" and "as if", but couldn't find it, It seems to have been deleted. I'm really sorry it was...

Keannu, when you are trying to find your posts containing some phrases, don't use "keannu" as a keyword. Click "Advanced Search" and you have a possibility of specifying the author of the post you are looking for there.