is firstly correct

[Casiopea]

Agreed.

Students can--and should--think for themselves. ;-)

 

[nyggus]

Not incorrect - at least in BE; just rather old-fashioned (obeying a prescriptive rule that is no longer widely applied).

b

OK, but it does not necessarily agree with what Casiopea wrote, does it? Sameer wrote a wise thing - we, non-native English speakers, need strict rules. Where there are not such, it is very easy for a native speaker to show we are wrong, and any our attempts to defend our choices are foredoomed to failure: simply because our knowledge will likely never be deep enough to convince him/her we are right and he/she is wrong, even if we are right. This is especially the case when the native speaker is to evaluate our knowledge of or a work in English (it may be an exam, a piece of writing, or something like that), so I assume he/she has a deep knowledge of the English language, and is strict in how he/she evaluates - "no discussion" is how I would call such kind of evaluating. Unfortunately, this is quite often nowadays. And the thing is that two learned native persons may have different opinions on the thing, and it is possible they are not able to agree, so how come I would be able to convince such a person that I am right and he/she is wrong? This is how I see it. (And, by the way, I hope I expressed my thoughts comprehensibly.)

Nyggus

 

[Casiopea]

We can only do so much, nyggus. Students have the right to accept or reject what's offered. There is more than one option. ;-)

 

[nyggus]

We can only do so much, nyggus. Students have the right to accept or reject what's offered. There is more than one option. ;-)

I know that, but the problem appears when some people say that only one option is correct, others say that it's not, that another option is correct, and in addition there is a third group, that of those who say both options are correct. And imagine how I, a poor non-native English speaker, feel then: which way should I go? Not having strict rules is simply a problem for me when it comes to using the language although this is what makes, in my eyes, the language rich and beautiful.

Thanks!
Nyggus

 

[BobK]

I know that, but the problem appears when some people say that only one option is correct, others say that it's not, that another option is correct, and in addition there is a third group, that of those who say both options are correct. And imagine how I, a poor non-native English speaker, feel then: which way should I go? Not having strict rules is simply a problem for me when it comes to using the language although this is what makes, in my eyes, the language rich and beautiful.

Thanks!
Nyggus

I realize it's difficult for students, Nyggus. But there are teachers from many backgrounds here, and we don't always agree. You don't have to decide 'who's right and who's wrong'; you have to decide what works for you in your context.

I'm not being a laissez-faire liberal, saying 'some people say it, and that's OK by me'. I'm saying that there were many BE English grammar books not many years ago (40 or 50) that said you must say 'First, secondly...'. This prescription is no longer widely applied.

;-)

b

 

[Casiopea]

I know that, but the problem appears when some people say that only one option is correct, others say that it's not, that another option is correct, and in addition there is a third group, that of those who say both options are correct.

The issue isn't black and white: there is no definitive answer. That's why knowing the whole picture helps. Knowledge is power, true, but it's up to the reader to know how to use that knowledge in order to excerise that power. ;-)

I believe the links we provided address the issue from all angles.

Of the options available, if asked, I'd choose the one that axes -ly, but then again I am North American and axing -ly seems to be the norm here, but it is not the only choice available. Some North American speakers like -ly and use it.

We are observing language in change: options are available. People can think for themselves, and they should.

 

[nyggus]

We are observing language in change.

Thanks for all your comments. This one quoted from Casiopea's post is very, well, encouraging. I think the whole has no direct solution - when a native English speaker points me out that I am wrong, I usually (in situations when I know this person is learned in the language) simply will have to say "OK" even though it doesn't have to be the case. Entering the discussion then would usually end with a huge failure of mine. But I am pleased to know there are teachers like you, who are not that "objective".
I started this discussion because I had had such difficult situations with native speakers, but there is no time and place to describe them all - though you would laugh reading about them, of that I am sure! The funniest situations are when a person who evaluates a piece of writing thinks the piece is written by a non-native speaker (for example, because he/she was told that) and this is not true. Oh, dear, many funny things may come out then, may indeed!

Thanks you all again, it was a really fruitful (at least for me!) discussion,
Nyggus

 

[Casiopea]

You're most welcome, Nyggus. :-D

_____________
Psst. I kind of thought we were objective--open minded, not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. ;-)

 

[nyggus]

Psst. I kind of thought we were objective--open minded, not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. ;-)

RE: Psst. Indeed, that's why I put this objective into quotation marks as I wanted to use a kind of irony. But I see it wasn't that clear... By "objective" guys I meant here those who claimed to be objective, which basically made them more strict that it was needed. Ooooops... ;-)

Nyggus

 

[RonBee]

OK, but please remember that both camps, A. and B., agree on one thing. Consistency. In other words, there are two choices, A. or B., not three:

A. First, second, third, ...
B. Firstly, secondly, thirdly,...

Thanks, Cas.

~R

 

[sameer1728]

Not incorrect - at least in BE; just rather old-fashioned (obeying a prescriptive rule that is no longer widely applied).

b

Hey folks,

I started this thread to get my querry sorted .Do all agre that there are only 2 options. A. and B. Isn't it traditionally right to say First ,secondly....

 

[Casiopea]

From Jack Lynch's Guide to Grammar and Style:

The jury is still out on whether to use first or firstly, second or secondly, &c. Traditional usage had first, secondly, thirdly, but this is too inconsistent for modern taste. Most guides prefer just plain old first, second, third, and so forth, without the -ly ending.

American source: Lynch, Guide to Grammar and Style — F​

 

[BobK]

Hey folks,

I started this thread to get my querry sorted .Do all agre that there are only 2 options. A. and B. Isn't it traditionally right to say First ,secondly....

I'm afraid there's no simple answer to your question. Most EFL teachers in most countries advise and teach the use of 'First, second, third...' or 'Firstly, secondly, thirdly...'; a majority of teachers here (including me) prefer the former.

But a significant number of native speakers of BE in positions of influence and/or authority (potential employers/university admissions staff) believe that it's 'correct' to say 'First, secondly, thirdly...'. They were taught that way at school.

b

 

[BobK]

From Jack Lynch's Guide to Grammar and Style:

The jury is still out on whether to use first or firstly, second or secondly, &c. Traditional usage had first, secondly, thirdly, but this is too inconsistent for modern taste. Most guides prefer just plain old first, second, third, and so forth, without the -ly ending.

American source: Lynch, Guide to Grammar and Style — F​

We clashed/coincided. :up: Thanks for the link, Casi

b

 

[Casiopea]

Sameer, here are the UK sources. :-D

From Bristol University's Style Guide:

Use first, second, third rather than firstly, secondly, thirdly.​

UK source: Bristol University | University style guide and templates | University house style guide​

From the Thomson Round Hall House Style Guide (a publishing house):

first, secondly, thirdly (not firstly, secondly, thirdly)​

UK source: Round Hall > INFORMATION FOR AUTHORS > Style Guide​

From the Guardian News and Media Style Guide:

first, second, third​

never firstly, secondly, thirdly.​

UK source: F | Style guide | The Observer​

Note, in the past, the sequence "first, secondly, thirdly" was considered proper; now, however, the more economical (and parallel) "first, second, third" is preferred. (US source: House Style Guide)

 

[Casiopea]

Most EFL teachers in most countries advise and teach the use of 'First, second, third...' or 'Firstly, secondly, thirdly...'; a majority of teachers here (including me) prefer the former.

I wasn't able to find a UK source for firstly, secondly, thirdly, ...

I'm sure there is one; I just can't find it.

 

[BobK]

From Jack Lynch's Guide to Grammar and Style:

The jury is still out on whether to use first or firstly, second or secondly, &c. Traditional usage had first, secondly, thirdly, but this is too inconsistent for modern taste. Most guides prefer just plain old first, second, third, and so forth, without the -ly ending.

American source: Lynch, Guide to Grammar and Style — F​

We clashed/coincided. :up: Thanks for the link, Casi

b

 

[Casiopea]

You're most welcome, Bob. I didn't know we clashed, though. How so? (What does clash/coincide mean in British English?)

 

[BobK]

You're most welcome, Bob. I didn't know we clashed, though. How so? (What does clash/coincide mean in British English?)

When I wrote my post of 12.08 I hadn't seen yours of 12.02 - that sort of 'clash'; and we would have actually 'coincided' if I could think/type faster. ;-)

b

 

[Delmobile]

On this matter and others where there is not universal agreement (the serial comma, for instance) can sameer and other ESL students consult the style book recommended by their teacher or place of study? Or do they just have to jump out there with one choice or another and wait to "see if it flies"? It seems kind of rough on them.