[General] Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

[birdeen's call]

Exactly, which is why you simplify the cluster [ðz] by changing [ð] to [v], giving clo[vz], right?

Yes!

 

[2006]

That's just comical. :lol:

Why is it comical? It was and is a hope, not a promise. And I haven't said anything more about those two words.

Welcome to the 21st century, dearest 2006!
So does that mean that we should start pronouncing 'loathes' the same as 'lows'? Does lazy pronunciation become the norm? (even when teaching students)

2006

 

[birdeen's call]

There is a difference between producing norms and describing the real world. Science does the latter.

A student ought to be informed of the facts: people pronounce it this way, but there are some people who consider it lazy (even though they do pronounce it in the same way usually).

 

[thatone]

There is a difference between producing norms and describing real world. Science does the latter.

A student ought to be informed of the facts: people pronounce it this way, but there are some people who consider it lazy (even though they do pronounce it in the same way usually).

Agree, and I don't see why students who cannot pronounce such consonant clusters should be disheartened just because their teacher or some native speakers want to follow some imaginary pronunciation guidelines.

 

[2006]

Agree, and I don't see why students who cannot pronounce such consonant clusters should be disheartened just because their teacher or some native speakers want to follow some imaginary pronunciation guidelines.

There is nothing imaginary about pronunciation guidelines. But no one expects learners to achieve flawless pronunciation.

 

[NikkiBarber]

Agree, and I don't see why students who cannot pronounce such consonant clusters should be disheartened just because their teacher or some native speakers want to follow some imaginary pronunciation guidelines.

I agree. If my teachers had been on me to fix every little detail I got wrong I would never have opened my mouth to speak another language. Sometimes you have to realize that you have limits and find a way to be happy about what you can do. I choose to be satisfied that I no longer pronounce "th" as a "d" - but that doesn't mean that I won't keep practicing adding that "s" - I am just not going to stay silent until I get it right.

 

[2006]

but I am just not going to stay silent until I get it right.

No one is even remotely suggesting that you should that! Being afraid of making mistakes is one of the worst things a language learner can do.

 

[thatone]

There is nothing imaginary about pronunciation guidelines.

Depends on what these guidelines are about.

But no one expects learners to achieve flawless pronunciation.

Probably not, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't take advantage of alternate or less used pronunciations if it helps them.

 

[Raymott]

One very important point is being missed. A non-native speaker will rarely achieve a native accent (sad, maybe, but true). So, there is already the potential problem of being understood. A person with a strong foreign accent will be understood better if they say "clothes", rather than "close", because it is less likely to be misinterpreted.
Most native speakers don't articulate well (leading to pronunciations such as 'close' becoming 'normal', but they do it in a native style, with all the right intonation etc. that makes them generally comprehensible to their peers.

This is why I always advise students not to agonise about reproducing a /r/ flap because they want to say "latter" in the American way. It's not that I think the AmE pronunication is inferior; it is just less likely to lead to a foreign speaker being understood than if they say "latter". The same applies for learning BrE glottal stops when none are necessary. I also would not advise ESL learners to try to emulate a broad Australian accent, thinking that in Australia it will make them more comprehensible. It won't; until such an accent becomes normal through familarity with all the other cues that allow natives to speak lazily.
I've never heard of a person who is constantly misunderstood because s/he articulates well.

 

[birdeen's call]

Differences in pronunciation make speech difficult to understand. It doesn't matter whether persons involved are native or non-native. When you talk to a non-native speaker, do you change your /æɪ/ to /eɪ/ to make your speech easier to understand? Of course, when a person needs do make themselves clear, they will pronounce "clothes" with all the sounds written. If they can. But I don't understand how you can expect that non-native speakers utter difficult clusters in normal speech.

 

[thatone]

When you talk to a non-native speaker, do you change your /æɪ/ to /eɪ/ to make your speech easier to understand?

/æɪ/?

 

[birdeen's call]

Take a look at YouTube - Neighbours 5895 [Part 3] ("It's really great", about 0:50).

(No, I don't watch it. ;-))

 

[Raymott]

Differences in pronunciation make speech difficult to understand. It doesn't matter whether persons involved are native or non-native. When you talk to a non-native speaker, do you change your /æɪ/ to /eɪ/ to make your speech easier to understand?
I have done, especially when I was in England, where I could reasonably guess what aspects of my accent were difficult to understand.

Of course, when a person needs do make themselves clear, they will pronounce "clothes" with all the sounds written. If they can.
Why? - if the proper pronunciation is 'close'? You seem to be asserting that 'clothes' is the correct form. All I'm saying is that 'clothes' is more easily understandable to mean 'clothes' than 'close' is.

But I don't understand how you can expect that non-native speakers utter difficult clusters in normal speech.
It's the same expectation that my German teacher had for me to say 'ich' and 'ach' properly. Of course, some non-native speakers will never get the hang of those sounds; and I will never say them consistently like a native German would. But I've always assumed that if you try to learn another language, you need to make an effort to use the sounds they use. Of course it's difficult. I don't think anyone here will claim that learning a foreign language is easy.
But I've already said that the OP could get away with 'munts' or 'munce'.
So, it depends on what you mean by "expect". I would expect everyone learning English to try to use the two /th/ sounds but, at the same time, I would also expect that not everyone will be able to do it.

R.

 

[birdeen's call]

I have done, especially when I was in England, where I could reasonably guess what aspects of my accent were difficult to understand.

That's interesting! I haven't met anybody who would do such a thing in my entire life! It's admirable.

Why? - if the proper pronunciation is 'close'?

If the proper pronunciation is the pronunciation to which you resort when you're facing misunderstanding, then you have a point. Usually, you're not facing misunderstanding.

You seem to be asserting that 'clothes' is the correct form. All I'm saying is that 'clothes' is more easily understandable to mean 'clothes' than 'close' is.

I'm not asserting anything about correctness. It's clearly an unclear case and people won't agree on this. This knowledge is enough for me and (I think) can be for any student.

I agree that it may be more understandable (although I'm sure it depends on the speaker's ability to pronounce the sound). But the same is true about the speech of native speakers. And the native speakers do very well with pronouncing "clothes" as "close", so it needn't cause much trouble alone in non-native speech either.

It's the same expectation that my German teacher had for me to say 'ich' and 'ach' properly. Of course, some non-native speakers will never get the hang of those sounds; and I will never say them consistently like a native German would. But I've always assumed that if you try to learn another language, you need to make an effort to use the sounds they use. Of course it's difficult. I don't think anyone here will claim that learning a foreign language is easy.

It's not the same. Germans do distinuish between the two sounds and it's absolutely clear that it's correct to make them different and incorrect not to. This is not so when it comes to "clothes". Native speakers don't pronounce the [ð] usually and it's not clear that it's incorrect.

Also, there is a huge difference in difficulty in my opinion. The German sounds may be difficult for a person who doesn't have a practice in uttering them, but [ðz] is objectively difficult which the native pronunciation proves.

 

[Zelda Butterchunks]

You can try making both words sound like they have two syllables: months will be MON-thes and shrimp will be sher-RIMP. Repeat many, many times until it comes out right. Shrimp will work before months. For months, put your tongue between your upper and lower front teeth for the mon part and pull slide your tongue up and back until it is in position to whistle the s. I hope that helps.