[Grammar] since they lived in New York.

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sitifan

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My daughter has written to them frequently since they lived in New York.
(Pitfalls in English, by Lu Siyuan, published in 1996, page 249)
According to the author, the above sentences has practically the same meaning as the sentence below.
My daughter has written to them frequently since they left New York.

Do native speakers agree with what he says?
 
No.

If I wanted to convey the message of the second sentence, that's what I would say,
 
sitifan said:
My daughter has written to them frequently since they lived in New York.
My daughter has written to them frequently since they left New York.
Click to expand...
How can living in a place and leaving it be equivalent?
 
teechar said:
How can living in a place and leaving it be equivalent?
Click to expand...

I think that Sitifan is suggesting that, if their living there is now in the past, then they must have left.

If one no longer lives where one did, one must either have left or have been extracted from the place by an outside force. :)

If they still live in New York, I would use the present perfect in the since clause: My daughter has written to them frequently since they have lived in New York.

It looks as though Keith Bradford of the Word Reference forum has made essentially the same point in post #4 of the thread to which Sitifan has provided a link.
 
Phaedrus said:
My daughter has written to them frequently since they have lived in New York.
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I would use the present perfect as well, if I used the verb "live". However, I would be more likely to use a different verb which would attract a different tense:

My daughter has written to them frequently since they moved to New York.
 
emsr2d2 said:
I would use the present perfect as well, if I used the verb "live". However, I would be more likely to use a different verb which would attract a different tense:

My daughter has written to them frequently since they moved to New York.
Click to expand...

I'd say that since-clauses with stative verbs in the present perfect in such sentences work like while-clauses.

My daughter has written to them frequently since they have lived in New York.
My daughter has written to them frequently while they have lived in New York.

The only difference seems to be that, with while instead of since, the sentence would be true even if there was more than one period of time in question. A since-clause in the present-perfect presupposes only one period of time. Compare:

My daughter has written to him five times since he has been in prison.
My daughter has written to him five times while he has been in prison.

The sentence with while would be true if the five times were divided between different prison terms, whereas the sentence with since presupposes the existence of only one prison term, during which the five writing events took place. Incidentally, would you feel the need to get rid of the present perfect in the prison example?

My daughter has written to him five times since he has been in prison.
My daughter has written to him five times since he was put in prison.

I tend to doubt that the sentence with "since he was put in prison" is superior in any way to the sentence with "since he has been in prison." Incidentally, it is worth noting that, with the past tense in the since clause with be, an implication would arise that is analogous to the implication of leaving in sitifan's example:

My daughter has written to him five times since he was in prison.

That sentence, by representing his being in prison as being in the past, implies that he is no longer in prison, and thus implies either that he was let out or that he escaped. In any case, he wasn't in prison when she wrote to him those five times.
 
Since I was at this school, we have had three headmasters. = Since I left this school ...
Since I have been at this school, we have had three headmasters. = Since I came to this school ...
He has been to see me only once since I was ill. = ... since I got well.
He has been to see me only once since I have been ill. = ... since I fell ill.
He has never called on her since she lived in the new house. = ... since she moved out of the new house.
He has never called on her since she has lived in the new house. = ... since she moved into the new house.
(A New English Grammar, Second Edition, by Zhang Keli, page 135)
 
Since I was at this school, we have had three headmasters. = Since I left this school ...
Unnatural. The speaker is unlikely to say we have had three headmasters after they have left the school. Apart from that, the sentence is possible, but the first clause would be more natural as Since I left the/that school.

Since I have been at this school, we have had three headmasters. = Since I came to this school ...
OK

He has never called on her since she lived in the new house. = ... since she moved out of the new house.
Pretty unnatural. The alternative given is more natural, though I am left wondering why she moved out of a new house.

He has never called on her since she has lived in the new house. = ... since she moved into the new house.
OK.


It seems to me that Zhang Keli is inventing sometimes unnatural sentences to make a point about some uses of certain tenses/aspects.
 
5jj said:
Since I was at this school, we have had three headmasters. = Since I left this school ...
Unnatural. The speaker is unlikely to say we have had three headmasters after they have left the school. Apart from that, the sentence is possible, but the first clause would be more natural as Since I left the/that school.
Click to expand...

I agree with Piscean. The following sentence would be fine, though:

Since I was at this school, it has had three headmasters.

You could also say:

The school has had three headmasters since I went to school there.

Incidentally, in the U.S., we speak of principals, not of headmasters. When I write "headmaster," I'm thinking "principal."
 
... and in the UK, we've been saying 'headteacher' for decades now, as half of them are female.
 
Rover_KE said:
... and in the UK, we've been saying 'headteacher' for decades now, as half of them are female.
Click to expand...

The old-fashioned feminine version of “master” was “mistress,” but you should be cautious about using the word “mistress” in our part of the 21st century. In the first place, there’s a strong trend against using different terms for professionals or office holders based on gender. We used to say “landlord” and “landlady”; it’s now more common to say “landlord” regardless of whether the individual is male or female. Instead of “actor” and “actress,” one now hears “actor” for both male and female performers. With that trend in mind, I think you’d want to use the words “Master of Ceremonies” for the person who presides over a dinner program regardless of whether that person is a man or a woman. In addition, there’s a problem with “mistress” because the term can refer to a woman who has accepted an illicit relationship with a male patron.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-feminine-word-for-master
 
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Phaedrus said:
I think that Sitifan is suggesting that, if their living there is now in the past, then they must have left.

If one no longer lives where one did, one must either have left or have been extracted from the place by an outside force. :)

If they still live in New York, I would use the present perfect in the since clause: My daughter has written to them frequently since they have lived in New York.

It looks as though Keith Bradford of the Word Reference forum has made essentially the same point in post #4 of the thread to which Sitifan has provided a link.
Click to expand...

My daughter has written to them frequently since they have lived in New York.

I wonder if “they have lived in New York” could also mean that “they do not live in New York any longer” just like “who has been (a server)” means “who is not a server any longer” in the following example.

Anyone who is a server or who has been one knows that customers always come first.
 
Rover_KE said:
... and in the UK, we've been saying 'headteacher' for decades now, as half of them are female.
Click to expand...
Did "headmistress" fall out of linguistic fashion, then? :)
 
diamondcutter said:
My daughter has written to them frequently since they have lived in New York.

I wonder if “they have lived in New York” could also mean that “they do not live in New York any longer” just like “who has been (a server)” means “who is not a server any longer” in the following example.
Click to expand...

"They have lived in New York" can certainly be used if they no longer live in New York. I have lived in Santa Barbara and Santa Cruz. I no longer live in either of those cities.

I can't imagine anyone interpreting time clauses like "since they have lived in New York" or "since he has been in prison" as indicating bygone situations.

As clauses of reason, however, in sentences where that different reading of "since" applies (irrelevant to the sentences I've discussed here), your reading is possible:

Since they have lived in New York, they know what it is like to see the Statue of Liberty regularly.
Since he has been in prison, it is unlikely that they will hire him.

In such sentences, "since" can be replaced by "because." "Since" cannot be thus replaced in Sitifan's examples, or at least in the example of Sitifan's which I discussed.
 
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Phaedrus said:
Incidentally, in the U.S., we speak of principals, not of headmasters.
Click to expand...

It is the same here in Canada but it's not universally true. In India, for example, the principal and the headmaster(mistress) are usually two different people. The head is the head teacher and is in charge of academic matters. The principal handles finance, HR , and all administrative affairs.
 
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Rover_KE said:
Up to a point.
Click to expand...
The point for many people being that the gender of a headteacher/principal is not relevant to anything to do with their job.
 
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