[Grammar] than is/are expected

[MichaelLu2000]

Hello everyone!

I would like to ask a question about the usage of the following structure: than is/are expected.

The major problem here is that I don't know whether I should use is or are when using this structure in a comparative sentence (I know we can simply omit the be verb in this structure, but I am just wondering which one I should use if I want to keep them)

For example,

a1. More people came here than (it) was expected.
a2. More people came here than (they) were expected.

Both of them seem to make sense. As the first one refers to the whole situation, the other refers to the subject (People)

Similar examples include:

b1. They came here earlier than was/were expected.
b2. He bought more apples than was/were needed.
b3. We have to buy more weapons than was/were necessary.
b4. We were much kinder than was/were needed.

PS. I think maybe B2 and B4 refer to different things: B2 means "more apples than apples were needed" B4 means "kinder than it was needed".

Any advice is welcome.

 

[Tdol]

I would use than expected. If you really want to use the verb, then use than were expected.

 

[jutfrank]

Use a2, without the word they, which is not possible in that sentence. The idea is that you're talking about a plurality of people, so were is appropriate. Fifteen people were expected, and thirty came.

I would follow the same thinking for sentences b2 and b3, since they also use plural noun phrases.

(By the way, sentence b3 has an error—it should read had to.)

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Thank you for replying. How about A1 & B4? What do you think about them?

 

[jutfrank]

Thank you for replying. How about A1 & B4? What do you think about them?

As I've suggested, I think a1 is not as good as a2. That's why I advised you to use a2.

For b4, you have to use was. were is just not possible. needed seems unnatural. Use necessary instead.

For b1, were is not possible. was is fine but I suggest you simply use earlier than expected.

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Use a2, without the word they, which is not possible in that sentence. The idea is that you're talking about a plurality of people, so were is appropriate. Fifteen people were expected, and thirty came.

By the way, I think it depends on which part of the sentence the the "Than is/are adj/P.P part refers to.

I can say:

a. He saw more people than were expected. (were is used to refer to people he saw. We didn't expect that many people to be seen)

b. He saved more people than was expected. (Was is used to refer to "He". He was expected to save fewer people. But it turned out the he saved more)

Other examples can be:

c. They drank more water than is necessary (Is is used to refer the the necessary amount of water)

d. They have earned more money than were thought. (were is used to refer to "they were thought to have earn")

e. He killed more people than were reported. (He killed more people than those that were reported.)

f. He killed more people than was reported. (He killed more people than he was reported to have killed)

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Use a2, without the word they, which is not possible in that sentence. The idea is that you're talking about a plurality of people, so were is appropriate. Fifteen people were expected, and thirty came.

I would follow the same thinking for sentences b2 and b3, since they also use plural noun phrases.

About B3, why can't we use "was"? It can be interpreted as "We have to buy more weapons than (it) was necessary (to buy)".

 

[jutfrank]

About B3, why can't we use "was"? It can be interpreted as "We have to buy more weapons than (it) was necessary (to buy)".

I didn't actually say that you can't use was. In fact, I think it's okay to use was if that's the interpretation.

 

[jutfrank]

Slow down, Jason! Give us time to respond. You're bringing up too many sentences to deal with easily at once.

Let me address the first two of your latest examples.

a. He saw more people than were expected. (were is used to refer to people he saw. We didn't expect that many people to be seen)

I don't like this sentence. It would be better to rephrase it to make the sense clear. Perhaps: He saw more people than he expected (to see).

b. He saved more people than was expected. (Was is used to refer to "He". He was expected to save fewer people. But it turned out the he saved more)

We don't actually know who did the expecting. It may have been 'he' but it certainly doesn't have to have been.

I interpret it that there was a number that was expected—a number which was exceeded.

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Thank you for replying and I am sorry for going too fast.

However, according to what I've found so far, it seems that there are two explanations for this structure.

One is that the part that is omitted is the subject in the first sentence, as in

a. More people came than were expected. (Than they were expected)

The other is that the part that is omitted cannot be found in the first sentence, as in

b. More people came than was expected. (Than it was expected.)

It seems that your explanation can apply to b. as well, but you chose to use a in the first place.

There are many verbs and adjectives that can and should be used with only singular be verb in this structure.

For example: than is expected/described/arranged/planned/anticipated/reported/allowed or than is necessary/usual/normal/acceptable

It follows the structure because we can use it in this way: It is expected that......

So, I don't know why we can't say "More people came here than was expected", since we can state that it was expected that a certain number of people would come but eventually more people came.

However, as in the example: We bought more apples than were needed. Was is not appropriate since it is the apples that were needed. We can definitely argue that we can use the following structure "It is needed that we buy a certain number of apples", but it sounds unnatural and way too complicated.

The same patter applies to these sentences: More people were killed than were saved, We broke down more houses than were built, We lost more children than were born, Do not jot down more notes than were needed. All these verbs or adjectives cannot be used in the "It is adj/P.P that structure.

 

[jutfrank]

I don't know why we can't say "More people came here than was expected", since we can state that it was expected that a certain number of people would come but eventually more people came.

But who told you we can't say that? I didn't mean to suggest so. I think that what you say makes sense. It's a question of what the speaker has in mind, whether that's a plurality (people) or a quantity (a number of people).

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Well no one told me not to use it. So, I think we all agree that it works. By the way, I think even this sentence is grammatically correct: More people showed up than was seen last night. Here the "was seen" part refers to the whole situation "It was seen that some people were there last night."

 

[MichaelLu2000]

That doesn't work.

Should it be "than were seen" last night?

 

[Tdol]

By the way, I think even this sentence is grammatically correct: More people showed up than was seen last night. Here the "was seen" part refers to the whole situation "It was seen that some people were there last night."

It does not sound grammatically correct to me.