Rachel Adams
Key Member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2018
- Member Type
- Student or Learner
- Native Language
- Russian
- Home Country
- Georgia
- Current Location
- Georgia
There are different rules in different books. This is what I have learnt so far:It depends on the context. There's no rule.
The trouble with trying to find a one-size-fits-all example is that there isn't one.
For example, there are some some very unfriendly Americans – such as the notorious gangster, Hugh Doidy-Rett.
But do you agree that 'The Americans', 'The Italians', and other natinal adjectives that end with 'ian' or 'ans' when used with the definite article as given in this list refer to some specific people of that nationality and not the whole nation?
I don't think so. We know that the definite article 'the' is used before a national name with a plural notion to denote a people collectively. The noun 'people' has two meanings. One is 'a nation' and the other is 'persons'. Please consider the following sentence.
'The Americans are a rich people' (nation).
A people = a nation
In Swan they are just listed. That rule was in another book I had. You don't agree with it either, do you?Did Swan really present it as a rule? The disagreement you're seeing indicates that you're in tendency territory.
I not talking about such nouns as 'The French', 'The Japanese', I am asking about the ones with 'ian' and 'an' endings. 'Americans', 'Italians', for example. When talking generally about 'Americans', or 'Italians' or a similar national adjective the article should not be used. This is what I was taught. But I came across the rule in Swan that contradicts what I had previously learnt.
[1] The Italians like pasta.
[2] *French like garlic.
[3] The French like garlic.
English uses different categories for different nationalities in generic contexts. In [1] with "Italian", the fact that we have plural "s" identifies the form clearly as the plural of a noun (it would be the plural of the inhabitant noun illustrated by "an Italian").
With forms like "the French", on the other hand, we can't say [2], so "French" must be an adjective as a fused modifier-head, no plural ending, and the singular (male) inhabitant noun is illustrated by "a Frenchman" rather than "*a French".
So, if we replaced "Italians" by "French", as in [3], it would become an adjective in a 'fused-head' construction.
"The French" is then similar to what we see with "rich", adjectival fused-head in "the rich".
Then what I studied before is wrong. 'The definite article isn't used before 'Italians', 'Brazilians', Russians,' when talking about them generally.' Before national adjectives ending with 'ian' or 'an'. 'Italians speak quickly.' All Italians. It may be a generalisation but we are here we are talking about the whole nation.
But 'The Italians I work with are from Florence.' ='the Italians' some specific people.
No.But do you agree that 'The Americans', 'The Italians', and other natinal adjectives that end with 'ian' or 'ans' when used with the definite article as given in this list refer to some specific people of that nationality and not the whole nation?
This pair illustrate the generic use of "Italians", meaning "any Italian that exists".
[1] Italians like pasta.
[2] The Italians like pasta.
However, [2] could also have a non-generic interpretation where it refers to a particular set of Italians, as opposed to all Italians that exist. Context will determine.
As you say, "All the Italians like pasta" and "All Italians like pasta" can mean exactly the same thing.Sorry I have to reask. Without the article "Italians like pasta" =All Italians in general.
Yes.
"The Italians like pasta" =All Italians in general or a specific group of Italians.
Yes.
But can "Italians like pasta" without the article[STRIKE], can it[/STRIKE] also refer to a specific group of people?
No.
Could you please explain it to me once again?:-|
As you say, "All the Italians like pasta" and "All Italians like pasta" can mean exactly the same thing.
And as you also say, "All the Italians like pasta" can also refer to a specific group of people — for instance, the Italians at a wedding reception.
I notice that Paul said the same thing before you posted that. Is it clear yet?