The usage of "there is the"

[ROFTOK]

1 There is a book on the table. CORRECT
means A book is on the table. (location)
2 There is the book on the table.
means There (pointing at the book) is the book on the table! (correct)
The book is on the table. (location) WRONG
3 On the sofa there's a cat. On my bed there's the gift from Mum and dad.
This one is correct.

Why is There is the book on the table. wrong while On the sofa there's a cat. On my bed there's the gift from Mum and dad. is correct?

 

[Barque]

Why is There is the book on the table. wrong

This is certainly possible in the right context. Why do you say it's wrong?

Let's say two people are looking for a misplaced book. They look for it for some time and then give up. Later, while they're sitting around and chatting, one of them notices the book on a table.

THERE's the book on the table! I don't know how I missed it earlier.
(This would be said with emphasis on "There".)

Also, in your title, I think you meant Usage of "There is the".

 

[ROFTOK]

Let me come up with some contexts.
1
- Is there the book in the table?
- Let's me see...

2 Are there the children still in bed?

3 This is my room. This is my desk. There is the book you gave me on the table.

4 There is the Sun in the picture.


Are they all correct?

 

[Barque]

- Is there the book in the table?
- Let's me see...

Is the book on the table?
Let me see.

2 Are there the children still in bed?

Are the children still in bed?
Are there children still in bed?
(They don't mean the same thing. I'm not sure which you're looking for.)

3 This is my room. This is my desk. There is the book you gave me on the table.

This's fine.

4 There is the Sun in the picture.

Unusual but possible in the right context. "Sun" doesn't need a capital S.

 

[ROFTOK]

Is the book on the table?
Let me see.

But why is "Is there the book on the table" wrong?

Are the children still in bed?
Are there children still in bed?
(They don't mean the same thing. I'm not sure which you're looking for.)

I am looking for what each of them means. What's the difference?

Unusual but possible in the right context. "Sun" doesn't need a capital S.

What makes it unusual? There is only one sun and it exists in the sky (so to speak). It should be usual, shouldn't it?

 

[Barque]

What makes it unusual?

The reference to it being "there" in the picture. I was struggling to think of a situation in which it might be said. People don't say things without a reason.

If you mean "The sun is in the picture", that's different, and that's how you need to say it.

 

[ROFTOK]

Let's say two people are looking for a misplaced book. They look for it for some time and then give up. Later, while they're sitting around and chatting, one of them notices the book on a table.

THERE's the book on the table! I don't know how I missed it earlier.
(This would be said with emphasis on "There".)

But this case is covered in my first post.
--
2 There is the book on the table.
means There (pointing at the book) is the book on the table! (correct)
--

It's the deictic usage. It's clear. It's out of the question.

 

[ROFTOK]

The reference to it being "there" in the picture. I was struggling to think of a situation in which it might be said. People don't say things without a reason.

If you mean "The sun is in the picture", that's different, and that's how you need to say it.

Do you AGAIN mean "the pointing there"? I think you do. This usage is clear. Let's put it aside.

Now, explain to me please, why:
There is a sun in the picture. (meaning) A sun exists in the picture is CORRECT.
but
There is the sun in the picture. (meaning) The sun is in the picture is WRONG?

 

[Barque]

2 There is the book on the table.
means There (pointing at the book) is the book on the table! (correct)

But after that, in your first post, you asked

Why is There is the book on the table. wrong

Which did you mean?

But why is "Is there the book on the table" wrong?

It's not the natural way to ask that question.

I am looking for what each of them means. What's the difference?

Are the children still in bed? = You're asking about certain specific children, and you're asking if they're still in bed. A father might ask this at 10 am on a Saturday morning.

Are there children still in bed? = You're asking if there are any children (out of a specific group, perhaps), who're still in bed. A teacher at a residential school might ask this if she noticed that there weren't many students at the breakfast table.

 

[Barque]

Now, explain to me please, why:
There is a sun in the picture. (meaning) A sun exists in the picture is CORRECT.
but
There is the sun in the picture. (meaning) The sun is in the picture is WRONG?

The second doesn't just mean "The sun is in the picture".
Also, I didn't say the second was wrong. I said it was unusual. It's unlikely because the context needed for that sentence is an unlikely one. The only context I can think of is the same as the earlier one I suggested, with the book example.

 

[Barque]

All right, I think I've understood what you mean. You're asking if "There is the book on the table" can be used to mean "The book is on the table".

When you say "There's a book on the table", it's a statement of fact. A book is on the table.
When you say "There's the book on the table", the use of "the" means you're referring to a book that'd been talked about earlier. You'd use this if, for example, you'd lost that book and been looking for it, or if you'd been discussing it for some specific reason. It doesn't just mean "The book is on the table".

 

[ROFTOK]

Sorry, I made a typo.
It should

But after that, in your first post, you asked

Which did you mean?

I thought it was self-explanatory, that I didn't mean the one which I had labeled as correct. "THE POINTING THERE" doesn't need explaining. Thank you.

It's not the natural way to ask that question.

The point is why it is not natural.

Why is "Is there a book on the table?" natural but "Is there the book on the table?" is not?

That's the crux of the matter.

Are the children still in bed? = You're asking about certain specific children, and you're asking if they're still in bed. A father might ask this at 10 am on a Saturday morning.

Are there children still in bed? = You're asking if there are any children (out of a specific group, perhaps), who're still in bed. A teacher at a residential school might ask this if she noticed that there weren't many students at the breakfast table.

OK. This is clear.
I made a typo. It should have been:
Are there children still in bed? Is it wrong or correct and why?

 

[Barque]

The point is why it is not natural.

Why is "Is there a book on the table?" natural but "Is there the book on the table?" is not?

That's the crux of the matter.

It isn't natural because regular English speakers don't use that construction. That's how it is.

I made a typo. It should have been:
Are there children still in bed? Is it wrong or correct and why?

I've already explained where this might be used in post #9.

 

[ROFTOK]

All right, I think I've understood what you mean. You're asking if "There is the book on the table" can be used to mean "The book is on the table".

When you say "There's a book on the table", it's a statement of fact. A book is on the table.
When you say "There's the book on the table", the use of "the" means you're referring to a book that'd been talked about earlier. You'd use this if, for example, you'd lost that book and been looking for it, or if you'd been discussing it for some specific reason. It doesn't just mean "The book is on the table".

Exactly. OK. Thank you for understanding.
- Do you remember me reading a book yesterday?
- Yes.
- Where is it?
- There is the book on the table. (Correct? It has been mentioned before as you said)

But then I don't understand how it would differ from:

- Do you remember me reading a book yesterday?
- Yes.
- Where is it?
- The book is on the table.

 

[ROFTOK]

It isn't natural because regular English speakers don't use that construction. That's how it is.


I've already explained where this might be used in post #9.

Oops... I meant "Are there the children still in bed?

Sorry... I missed "THE" twice.

 

[Barque]

- Do you remember me reading a book yesterday?
- Yes.
- Where is it?
- There is the book on the table. (Correct? It has been mentioned before as you said)

No, I'm afraid it isn't that simple. The appropriate answer here would be "It's on the table". You could also say "It's over there on the table" (pointing or gesturing at it).

You could say "THERE's the book on the table" when you've been looking for it.
You could say "There's the book you gave me on the table", if you want to remind the giver of the book (pointing at it).
If you're making a list of things you want to throw away, you could say "There's an ashtray on my desk that I don't want. There's also a penstand on my desk. And there's the clock that we bought last year on the bedside table." (Here you aren't pointing at the clock. You're saying it's there as one of the things to be thrown away.)

But then I don't understand how it would differ from:

- Do you remember me reading a book yesterday?
- Yes.
- Where is it?
- The book is on the table.

"The book is on the table" wouldn't be appropriate either, though not wrong. That's because people wouldn't repeat the word "book" in such a case. They'd just say, "It's on the table".

Oops... I meant "Are there the children still in bed?

Unnatural construction. Without context I wouldn't know what you meant.

 

[ROFTOK]

The more you are explaining the less I understand. But I don't mean that you are to blame. I think the matter at hand is complicated.
Let me try to unravel it with you.

- Do you remember me reading a book yesterday?
- Yes.
- Where is it?
- There is the book on the table.
__
WRONG
-
OK. You say "You could say "THERE's the book on the table" when you've been looking for it."
I am not clear on why it MUST BE "looking for" it. At first you said it (the book) has to have been specified in the/a conversation before. But now it turns out that it must be a specific specifying. I am not following the idea.

- Do you remember me reading a book yesterday?
- Yes.
- I can't find it. I've been looking for it all morning. Where is it?
- There is the book on the table.

Wrong again? Why?

 

[Barque]

I am not clear on why it MUST BE "looking for" it.

I didn't use the word "must". It's just one of the situations in which you could use "There is the".

But now it turns out that it must be a specific specifying. I am not following the idea.

I guess it's something you'll pick up with practice.

- Do you remember me reading a book yesterday?
- Yes.
- I can't find it. I've been looking for it all morning. Where is it?
- There is the book on the table.

Wrong again? Why?

I didn't say this was wrong. This is possible, if you say it while pointing at it.

The more you are explaining the less I understand.

Let's wait for someone else who might be able to explain it differently, in a way you understand.

 

[ROFTOK]

You could say "THERE's the book on the table" when you've been looking for it.
You could say "There's the book you gave me on the table", if you want to remind the giver of the book (pointing at it).

So, is it pointing at the book or is it a reminder only? Is it obligatory that the book and the table were visible at the time of speaking or not necessarily?

If you're making a list of things you want to throw away, you could say "There's an ashtray on my desk that I don't want. There's also a penstand on my desk. And there's the clock that we bought last year on the bedside table." (Here you aren't pointing at the clock. You're saying it's there as one of the things to be thrown away.)

It's clear that it's one of the things to be thrown away. It's even clear why the is used. Because of "that we bought last year".
However, your example got me thinking about this:

"There's an ashtray on my desk that I don't want. There's also a penstand on my desk." Can "an ashtray" and "a penstand" potentially mean that there is more of them than one?

There's an ashtray on my desk that I don't want. But there are two others which I will keep.

 

[ROFTOK]

I didn't use the word "must". It's just one of the situations in which you could use "There is the".

That's true. This is what you said: When you say "There's the book on the table", the use of "the" means you're referring to a book that'd been talked about earlier.
I deduced that it's a must to have it mentioned before. After all, it's ridiculous to copy your interlocutor's words verbatim.
I hope you don't object to the idea of mentioning being a must for the to be used.

I didn't say this was wrong. This is possible, if you say it while pointing at it.

OK, but we have agreed that the meaning of "pointing" we put out of scope. If it's the "pointing the" then I don't need it, because you said yourself in 11
All right, I think I've understood what you mean. You're asking if "There is the book on the table" can be used to mean "The book is on the table".

Let's wait for someone else who might be able to explain it differently, in a way you understand.

You misunderstood me. You think that I am laying the blame for my misunderstanding on you. It's not the case. I think you are explaining well. It's just that it's a difficult matter. Everyone is welcome to join, why wait for them if the can join any moment if they feel like so.