[Grammar] Would that he had lived to see it.

[kadioguy]

would that… (literary) used to express a strong wish

Would that he had lived to see it.

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/would?q=would
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I am imagining context for this example sentence.

Context:

a.
Mary's dad died one year ago. Mary's wedding was last week.
Today Mary's mom says to me, 'Would that he had lived to see it.'

b.
Mary's dad died one year ago. Mary's wedding is today.
Mary's mom says to me, 'Would that he had lived to see it.'
--------

Are both of them acceptable? What do you think?

 

[GoesStation]

In American English, they might have been natural a hundred and fifty years ago. I'd forget about this construction if I were you.

 

[kadioguy]

In American English, they might have been natural a hundred and fifty years ago. I'd forget about this construction if I were you.

How about this?

a.
Mary's dad died one year ago. Mary's wedding was last week.
Today Mary's mom says to me, 'I wish that he had lived to see it.'

b.
Mary's dad died one year ago. Mary's wedding is today.
Mary's mom says to me, 'I wish that he had lived to see it.'
--------

Are both of them acceptable? What do you think?

(Actually my problem is the unreal situation "he had lived to see it". I am not sure how I can use this construction.)

 

[probus]

I am in a bit of a quandary here. I must agree with Goesstation that it is very rarely heard today. Nevertheless I find it easily intelligible, and suspect that many other native speakers would as well. It falls into the category of phrases that one would never utter oneself, but that one easily understands.

 

[kadioguy]

My parents (b. 1920s) would have produced such utterances.

Does "would have" here mean you think your parents might produce such utterances?

 

[kadioguy]

No. I am asserting certainty that they did produce such utterances.

Then I don't understand what "would have" here means. Is it the backshift of "will have"? Why not just say "My parents (b. 1920s) produced such utterances"?

 

[kadioguy]

Because I did not write down every word they uttered in their lives. I cannot say for a fact that they actually did.

OK, so "would have produced" here means a possibility instead of a fact although you are asserting certainly it. Am I right?

 

[jutfrank]

No. I am asserting certainty that they did produce such utterances.

We have to be careful here of how we understand certainty, I think. Although you may be asserting certainty, the use of would have suggests a lack of certainty.

It's easy to be confused about this, kadioguy. We have to be aware of whether we are conceiving the concept of certainty as a scale (with degrees of certainty), or as an absolute (where one is either certain or not certain).

 

[jutfrank]

OK, so "would have produced" here means a possibility instead of a fact

Essentially, yes.

 

[GoesStation]

OK, so "would have produced" here means a possibility instead of a fact although you are asserting certainly it. Am I right?

It's more than a mere possibility but less than a positively known fact. Piscean thought his parents almost certainly did what he said they did, but couldn't produce a recording proving they had.

 

[probus]

Does "would have" here mean you think your parents might produce such utterances?

No. It means that they "customarily" produced them.

 

[bubbha]

How about this?

a.
Mary's dad died one year ago. Mary's wedding was last week.
Today Mary's mom says to me, 'I wish that he had lived to see it.'

b.
Mary's dad died one year ago. Mary's wedding is today.
Mary's mom says to me, 'I wish that he had lived to see it.'
--------

Are both of them acceptable? What do you think?

Yes, but I think the meaning of the original is more closely expressed by replacing "Would that" with "If only".

"Today Mary's mom said to me, 'If only he had lived to see it.'"

 

[kadioguy]

Yes, but I think the meaning of the original is more closely expressed by replacing "Would that" with "If only".

"Today Mary's mom said to me, 'If only he had lived to see it.'"

Is the following possible? If not, could you tell me your reason?

"Today Mary's mom said to me, 'If only he lived to see it.'"