[Grammar] Comparison with elliptical construct

[Raymott]

Since 'More people came than expected' is correct, why is 'More people came than invited' incorrect?

Because the first is Rover's opinion and second is mine?
For some reason, "There are more people than expected" sounds good, but "There are more people than invited" sounds less good. I can't put my finger on the reason at present. As for the grammaticality, there have been a lot of opinions. Someone more interested than I am could look for some evidence with authority and an explanation.

 

[Matthew Wai]

I, for one, would be confused by a sentence being incorrect for some reason which cannot be explained.

 

[Rover_KE]

English cannot be the only language in which this happens.

 

[vpkannan]

Dear Mr. Raymott

Thanks for your encouraging words. As far as the verb 'fail' is concerned, we can say it is bare infinitive due to the following grammatical rule:

the construct 'finite verb + preposition + noun (phrase)' is grammatically correct: Applying this to your sentence 'More students pass than fail', 'pass' is undoubtedly the (main and finite) verb of the sentence followed by the preposition 'than' whose prepositional object is 'fail', a bare infinitive noun phrase.

Regarding my sentence, my contention is a finite verb cannot be used without subject in the subordinating clause. Otherwise, sentences like 'I drank before smoked' would also be correct whereas it should be 'I drank before smoking' because 'before' is used as a preposition. If 'before' is used as a subordinating conjunction, the sentence should be 'I drank before I smoked'. Please clarify if my logic holds good for my sentence.

 

[emsr2d2]

Because the first is Rover's opinion and second is mine?
For some reason, "There are more people than expected" sounds good, but "There are more people than invited" sounds less good. I can't put my finger on the reason at present. As for the grammaticality, there have been a lot of opinions. Someone more interested than I am could look for some evidence with authority and an explanation.

I can't put my finger on it either but a little voice at the back of my mind says "expected" is more like an adjective but "invited" is clearly a verb! Please note that that is NOT a grammatical explanation, it's an attempt at explaining why (for me) the first sounds fine and the second doesn't.

 

[Matthew Wai]

Can "had been" be omitted from "More people came than had been prepared for"? Any voice at the back of your mind?

 

[Rover_KE]

I would never say that.

 

[Matthew Wai]

Because it is ungrammatical or unnatural?

 

[Rover_KE]

Unnatural.

 

[Raymott]

I, for one, would be confused by a sentence being incorrect for some reason which cannot be explained.

It's incorrect because i) we don't say it and ii) no native speaker here likes it.
Nevertheless, that isn't the last word. If someone can prove that it is correct grammatically, they may do so. It won't change i) and ii). I think this would be good enough for most learners (who just want to speak like natives, and not be grammarians), but obviously not for some.
One point of logic if I may: That none of us here can explain it to your satisfaction doesn't mean that it can't be explained.

 

[Raymott]

the construct 'finite verb + preposition + noun (phrase)' is grammatically correct: Applying this to your sentence 'More students pass than fail', 'pass' is undoubtedly the (main and finite) verb of the sentence followed by the preposition 'than' whose prepositional object is 'fail', a bare infinitive noun phrase.

I thought we'd shown that 'than' was a conjunction, not a preposition, so your explanation doesn't work.
See 3 here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/than

 

[Matthew Wai]

May I simply think that "than expected" is an exception and thus "had been" should not omitted from sentences in a similar construction?

 

[Raymott]

May I simply think that "than expected" is an exception and thus "had been" should not omitted from sentences in a similar construction?

If you read the first couple of posts again, you'll find that the majority of respondents suggested that the version with "had been" is best. Using "had been" routinely where it belongs would therefore be the take-away message from this thread. (I guess you were expected to simply think that from the beginning) ;-)

 

[vpkannan]

Dear Mr. Raymott


In the link you have given as well as in other dictionaries, 'than' is given as conjunction and preposition also.


Even if it is only conjunction, it should be a coordinating conjunction in 'More students pass than fail' as 'and' in 'Many people drink and eat'. However, Mr. MikeNewYork has said that 'than' is not usually classified as a coordinating conjunction.


I think if it is a subordinating conjunction, a verb cannot be used without subject in subordinate clause.

 

[Raymott]

In the link you have given as well as in other dictionaries, 'than' is given as conjunction and preposition also.

I think that's entirely irrelevant. By citing 3 above, under Than (conjunction):
"(used to introduce the rejected choice in expressions of preference): I'd rather walk than drive there."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/than
I was giving an exact analogous sentence from a dictionary which says that 'than' is a conjunction in this case. Therefore, I believe I have refuted your post about 'finite verb + preposition + noun".
It's quite irrelevant whether "than" can be a preposition unless you can show that it functions as a preposition in "I'd rather walk than drive".

To save your argument, you'll first have to find some authority for your suggestion that "than" is a preposition here.
Then you would have to explain your statement from above:
"As far as the verb 'fail' is concerned, we can say it is bare infinitive due to the following grammatical rule: the construct 'finite verb + preposition + noun (phrase)' is grammatically correct." Specifically, you'd have to explain how this rule means that "finite verb + preposition + something else (here, another finite verb) " is not correct.

 

[vpkannan]

Dear Mr. Raymott


I agree that 'than' is a conjunction in 'More students pass than fail' and 'I'd rather walk than drive there'.


Kindly tell me whether 'than' is a coordinating conjunction or subordinating conjunction.


With regards


V P Kannan

 

[MikeNewYork]

Not all conjunctions fall into the categories "coordinating" or "subordinating". Some conjunctions are called "correlative". That fits "more...than", "rather...than", and comparative adjective..."than".

 

[vpkannan]

Mr. MikeNewYork / Mr. Raymott

Thanks for reminding me about correlative conjunctions. Among the correlative conjunctions used to join words/phrases rather than clauses, the second word of almost all correlative conjunctions is a coordinating conjunction. Therefore, 'than' in 'more than' and 'rather than' is also a coordinating conjunction which can be used to join any two constructs including words, phrases and clauses. As such, 'than' in 'More students pass than fail' is a coordinating conjunction joining two words (verbs) 'pass' and 'fail'.

Such a view is possible for 'More people came than had been expected' wherein 'than' is a coordinating conjunction joining the finite verbs 'came' and 'had been expected', two parallel constructs. I hope my understanding is correct.

With regards

V P Kannan