Diagramming Einstein Redux

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catalata22

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Hello All,

I am wondering if someone could help me with a Reed-Kellogg diagram for the following Einstein quote:

[FONT=&quot]"[FONT=&quot]Teaching should be such that what is offered is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a hard duty.”[/FONT]

Thanks much in advance :-D[/FONT]

Catalata
 

corum

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suchthat.gif


Teaching should be such that what is offered is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a hard duty

as = expletive
 

Frank Antonson

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How about this, Corum? What do you think?

einsteinr.gif
 

corum

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Hello Frank! The first problem is 'such' is an adjective and 'that' introduces an appositive clause. You are thinking differently. :cry: Regarding the other main difference in our respective interpretations, IMO 'is perceived' fulfills a linking function. Ask Gene! What he says I wonder.

EDIT: FRank, I highly doubt that 'so' is understood as part of the subordinator.
 
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Frank Antonson

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Hello Frank! The first problem is 'such' is an adjective and 'that' introduces an appositive clause. You are thinking differently. :cry: Regarding the other main difference in our respective interpretations, IMO 'is perceived' fulfills a linking function. Ask Gene! What he says I wonder.

EDIT: FRank, I highly doubt that 'so' is understood as part of the subordinator.

I know what you are saying on almost every account. However, you could say "Something is perceived differently" more comfortably that "Something is perceived different". "Such" can be thought of as an adjective, as in "Such fun"; but also as a pronoun, as in "Such is fun". For there to be an appositive there, you would have to be able to take it out since it would be duplicating something. What is clause duplicating?

By the way, isn't this fun!!??
 

Frank Antonson

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Speaking of Gene. I got my school to buy me a copy of his new book. "Drawing Sentences". It's fun and very complete. I don't think there is anything new in it, but it's great to see a new book on the subject of Reed-Kellogg.

Back to that Einstein sentence, I am not at all sure that my interpretation is correct, but I still like it better than yours.

Surely, you will admit that "as" is a preposition!
 

corum

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By the way, isn't this fun!!??

Very!

For there to be an appositive there, you would have to be able to take it out since it would be duplicating something.

In the case of restrictive apposition, this does not hold true. Or does it?

Such is fun
One thing that I have learnt from my studies in TG is that sentences have a D-structure and a corresponding S-structure. D stands for deep and S for surface.
The deep structure of the above sentence is this:
Fun be such. [NP IP Vp[V AP]]

There are two movement rules operate while we get to this: "Such is this".

1. V lands in IP
2. AP NP swap

[In the house] is [Frank].
[White] is his house and [green] is his garden.

Pre-verbal position is not the VIP room for NP's. Other types of phrases can occupy it too. So your sentence does not substantiate your claim for 'such' being a noun (phrase). :-o

Let us apply one distributional test for 'such' in 'Such is fun.'

Truly such is fun. :tick:
Truly this is fun. :cross:

Hmm...
 

Frank Antonson

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"Such is the condition of man -- that he is mortal. "

Here we have "such" as a pronoun and "that he is mortal" as an appositive.

I have never heard of a restrictive appositive. If it is restrictive, it would be modifying.
 

corum

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Frank Antonson

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Your use of TG (transformational grammar, for others like me) is tantalizing. TG needs an apologist -- one who can demonstrate its usefulness -- before I am willing to dive into it. This sentence that we are working on comes very close to convincing me that TG can add something to RK (Reed Kellogg, for those not like me.)
 

Frank Antonson

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This is SO like the good old days, before a guy with the user name of Kondorosi was banned from this forum.
 

corum

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"Such is the condition of man -- that he is mortal. "

Here we have "such" as a pronoun and "that he is mortal" as an appositive.

I have never heard of a restrictive appositive. If it is restrictive, it would be modifying.

Do we know what 'such' means before we go on to say: "that he is mortal,"?

From "it can be anything" we narrowed down the meaning to 'that he is mortal". We restricted the scope of its meaning.
 

corum

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This is SO like the good old days, before a guy with the user name of Kondorosi was banned from this forum.

:) We are thinking of the same thing now.
 

Frank Antonson

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You must have witnessed his work.
 

Frank Antonson

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Do we know what 'such' means before we go on to say: "that he is mortal,"?

From "it can be anything" we narrowed down the meaning to 'that he is mortal". We restricted the scope of its meaning.

Okay, I see what you mean there; but we did so by re-naming it -- not by modifying it. You can take either the "such" or the "that he is mortal" out and it doesn't change the syntax (other than removing the appositive). The subject is duplicated.
 

Frank Antonson

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Tell me...

Since this is so much fun, why don't people play this like chess?

I will be ready to admit checkmate when you convince me.
 

corum

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Okay, I see what you mean there; but we did so by re-naming it -- not by modifying it.

I did not bring into our argument the idea of modification. I think it was you. ;-) I agree that apposition means the renaming of a preceding NP. By renaming you may be more precise.
You can take either the "such" or the "that he is mortal" out and it doesn't change the syntax (other than removing the appositive). The subject is duplicated.

completes the meaning --> complement
changes the meaning --> modifier

Checkmate? ;-)
 

Frank Antonson

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I did not bring into our argument the idea of modification. I think it was you. ;-) I agree that apposition means the renaming of a preceding NP. By renaming you may be more precise.


completes the meaning --> complement
change the meaning --> modifier

OK?

I should have said "re-stating" because an appositive may be a verb, an adjective, a preposition, etc.

The main thing is that an appositive duplicates a part of a sentence.

Eventually I will post a Shakespearean sentence that includes an absolutely absurd number of appositives.

Let's not get too far away from that sentence (like a raw bone thrown between two hungry dogs). Can you show me that there is an appositive in it?
 
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