I wish he told the truth/I wished he had told the truth

[ringu20]

Is the meaning of these two sentences the same? Are they interchangable?

"I wish he told the truth."

"I wished he had told the truth."

 

[Phaedrus]

Is the meaning of these two sentences the same? Are they interchangable?

No. The first sentence responds to his ongoing habit of not telling the truth, the second to a past instance of his not telling the truth -- viz.:

He doesn't tell the truth. I wish he did.

He didn't tell the truth. I wish he had.

Actually, if you really meant to use the past tense ("wished") in the second sentence, it is referring to a time further back in the past from the wish.

I found out that he hadn't told the truth. I wished that he had, but he hadn't.

 

[ringu20]

No. The first sentence responds to his ongoing habit of not telling the truth, the second to a past instance of his not telling the truth -- viz.:

He doesn't tell the truth. I wish he did.

He didn't tell the truth. I wish he had.

Actually, if you really meant to use the past tense ("wished") in the second sentence, it is referring to a time further back in the past from the wish.

I found out that he hadn't told the truth. I wished that he had, but he hadn't.

Ok. I understand. So, would this sentence be correct? "I wished I had been more handsome in my high school years."

 

[Phaedrus]

So, would this sentence be correct? "I wished I had been more handsome in my high school years."

Do you mean for "in my high school years" to specify both the time of "wished" and the time of the wished-for handsomeness?

If so, I think you need "were":

When I was in high school, I wished I were more handsome.

With "had been," I believe the time reference of the wish must technically still be interpreted as being further in the past -- e.g.:

When I was in high school, I wished I had been more handsome in junior high.

Can I absolutely guarantee, however, that I wouldn't say, "When I was in high school, I wished I had been more handsome" (in high school)? No.

I wonder what my fellow native speakers think about this issue, assuming I have understood correctly that you are indeed asking about it.

 

[jutfrank]

With "had been," I believe the time reference of the wish must technically still be interpreted as being further in the past.

I'm not sure I've understood clearly what you mean above. Could you explain again?


I wish I'd been more handsome when I was in junior high causes no problems for me.

If the intent is to express that the wishing is past, I'd really want to rephrase the thought, e.g.: I used to wish that I was more handsome.

 

[Phaedrus]

I'm not sure I've understood clearly what you mean above. Could you explain again?

With "had been" (in the sentence "When I was in high school, I wished I had been more handsome"), I believe the time reference of the wish (expressed by the clausal complement of "wished" in "wished I had been handsomer") must technically still be interpreted as being further in the past (than the time of "wished," namely, "when I was in high school"). I spoke of junior high because I understand the time of ringu20's wish to be when he was in high school and therefore, with "had been," to concern a time period earlier than high school, such as the time during which he was in junior high. I understand ringu20 (or the hypothetical speaker of ringu20's specimen) to be reporting on a wish that he had in high school (concerning an earlier past time) and probably no longer has; otherwise he would surely be using "wish" rather than "wished."

 

[jutfrank]

Phaedrus—Okay, I see what you mean now, but I don't agree that that's how it "must technically be interpreted". Let me explain how I approach thinking about this.

We backshift the verb to show some kind of distancing/remoteness, of whatever nature that may be. So:

I am not handsome
I wish I were handsome.

The backshift here expresses a remoteness of factuality.

I was not handsome at school.
I wish I had been handsome at school.

In the former sentence above, was shows a remoteness in time between the present moment of speaking and the past time reference point. The reasons for a double backshift in the second sentence are twofold—remoteness in time and factuality.

For me, then, the only difference between, say:

a) I wish I'd been more handsome.
b) I wished I'd been more handsome.

is the temporal location of the wishing. For me, there is no reason to think that what you're calling the 'time reference(s) of the wish' are necessarily any different. (Though that's not to say they couldn't be.)

So I don't understand why you see the backshifting of wish to wished as playing an instrumental part here. In what way does backshifting wish to wished 'technically' alter the grounding of the time reference point? I still see the remoteness in sentence b) as between the present moment and that moment, and not between that moment and a previous moment, as you seem to be suggesting, if I understand you right.

To summarise what I perceive to be our different views: You're thinking of the temporal remoteness as being grounded in the moment of the wish, whereas I'm thinking of it as grounded in the moment of speaking.

Have I understood you correctly?

 

[Phaedrus]

So I don't understand why you see the backshifting of wish to wished as playing an instrumental part here. In what way does backshifting wish to wished 'technically' alter the grounding of the time reference point?

I don't see wish as backshifted in (b). If there is backshift in (b) -- and I think that is the real issue -- then it is had been that is the backshifted form.

He said, "I am sick." --> He said that he was sick. (Commentary: "Said" is not a backshifted form; "am" has backshifted to "was.")
He said, "I was sick." --> He said that he had been sick. (Commentary: "Said" is not a backshifted form; "was" has backshifted to "had been.")

The difficulty with determining whether backshift is really happening in (b), as I see it, or in any other sentence in which wished is the past-tense verb governing the complement clause is that wish, even in the present tense, always brings into play past forms, or past-like subjunctive/irrealis forms.

What is clear is that when the past perfect is used in the complement clause of wish in the present tense, the complement clause refers to a time before the present. What is not clear to me is whether the past perfect used after wish in the past tense (wished) must refer to a time prior to the time of wished.

I still see the remoteness in sentence b) as between the present moment and that moment, and not between that moment and a previous moment, as you seem to be suggesting, if I understand you right.

I see the difference between wish (present tense) and wished (past tense) as the difference between the present moment and that earlier moment. I see were after wish as referring to the present, contemporaneous with wish. I see had been after wish as referring to a time earlier than the present.

The problem is whether had been after wished must refer to a time earlier than wished or whether it can refer to a time contemporaneous with wished. If it can refer to a time contemporaneous with wished, does that imply that it would be wrong to use were for that time reference? Or could either be used?

Basically, is backshift meaningless after wished?

Help me, Obi-Wan.

 

[jutfrank]

The problem is whether had been after wished must refer to a time earlier than wished or whether it can refer to a time contemporaneous with wished. If it can refer to a time contemporaneous with wished, does that imply that it would be wrong to use were for that time reference? Or could either be used?

I wouldn't say it's wrong to use were, no. The more I keep repeating both forms in my mind, the more were sounds better.

Basically, is backshift meaningless after wished?

I don't think I would go as far as that. I still think that my sentence b) sounds okay and that it would likely cause no problems in context, so meaningless, no. However, you are doing a good job of convincing me of your case.

The Force is strong in you.