[Grammar] will after conditional if

[mmasny]

Hi,
I found this recently. It seems the thread wasn't treated very seriously, but I found it interesting. What do you think about the examples given by that user? I was taught to never use 'will' this way, but maybe there are exceptions?

 

[MASM]

Hi,
I found this recently. It seems the thread wasn't treated very seriously, but I found it interesting. What do you think about the examples given by that user? I was taught to never use 'will' this way, but maybe there are exceptions?

I've seen "will" used that way in what is called "mixed conditionals". As you know "will" is not only used to express the future tense. Sometimes it expresses volition: If you will do it, I'll help you. Determination or habit: If you will bet so much, you can't complain.

 

[mmasny]

Thanks for the reply.
I learned mixed conditionals and they didn't show me any such sentence. Could you give an example?

As for the volition part, the OP seems to have talked about the future 'will' specifically. He/she even specially stated it in the beginning of their post.

 

[bhaisahab]

Thanks for the reply.
I learned mixed conditionals and they didn't show me any such sentence. Could you give an example?

As for the volition part, the OP seems to have talked about the future 'will' specifically. He/she even specially stated it in the beginning of their post.

"This will happen, if you do that". Is it this structure that you are having a problem with?

 

[mmasny]

"This will happen, if you do that". Is it this structure that you are having a problem with?

Thanks for the reply.
No, that's not it. I mean 'will' in the conditional clause (as in the thread linked above).

 

[Barb_D]

I think there may be some confusion about whether the "If you will" is the precondition or the result.

If I say that, you will get angry. - You will get angry - result.
I will not say that, because you will get angry if I do.
If you will get angry after I say this, I won't say it.
If you'll get angry, I won't say it.

No matter where the "If you will" is in the sentence, it's still the result, not the condition.

Do you think that makes a difference in your understanding?

The only time I feel comfortable using "If you will" as the condition is that "polite-will" -- Sir, if you will wait here just a moment, I'll let Mr. Smith know you've arrived. There's no real conditional here - just a polite structure that avoids saying "Wait here and I'll get him for you."

Edit: Now that I've written this, I can think of other "If you will" phrases that sound okay to my ears at first, but they all sound better either as "would" or without the "will" -- except the polite ones (If you'll step this way... etc.).

 

[MASM]

Thanks for the reply.
I learned mixed conditionals and they didn't show me any such sentence. Could you give an example?

As for the volition part, the OP seems to have talked about the future 'will' specifically. He/she even specially stated it in the beginning of their post.

If I have understood correctly what the poster says in your link, he/she is drawing attention to other uses of "will" expressing volition.

Do you mean more examples of mixed conditionals with "will"?

 

[mmasny]

I think there may be some confusion about whether the "If you will" is the precondition or the result.

Thanks for your reply!

If I say that, you will get angry. - You will get angry - result.
I will not say that, because you will get angry if I do.

These are not sentences that I have in mind. They don't have 'will' in the if clause.

If you will get angry after I say this, I won't say it.
If you'll get angry, I won't say it.

This is exactly it.

No matter where the "If you will" is in the sentence, it's still the result, not the condition.

Do you think that makes a difference in your understanding?

I don't understand this question actually. :-( What makes a difference in my understanding of what? I'm sorry, I sometimes have problems when I see sentences that are unlike Polish ones.

The only time I feel comfortable using "If you will" as the condition is that "polite-will" -- Sir, if you will wait here just a moment, I'll let Mr. Smith know you've arrived. There's no real conditional here - just a polite structure that avoids saying "Wait here and I'll get him for you."

I think this is the case of volition 'will' that MASM mentioned. Am I right?

Edit: Now that I've written this, I can think of other "If you will" phrases that sound okay to my ears at first, but they all sound better either as "would" or without the "will" -- except the polite ones (If you'll step this way... etc.).

I'd love to hear more of these etceteras (both polite and impolite)! This is a totally new thing to me that it's correct English. I mean, I heard polite "if you will", but only this.

 

[mmasny]

If I have understood correctly what the poster says in your link, he/she is drawing attention to other uses of "will" expressing volition.

I think you understand it incorrectly. The poster says:

in addition to 'will' used in the if-clause to express volition

Which I think means that he/she wants to talk about non-volition 'will'. But anyway, I understand the thing when it's about someone's will. So we don't have to dig this

Do you mean more examples of mixed conditionals with "will"?

Yes, exactly. Ones with 'will' in the conditional clause please. I've never seen any, so I'm eager to learn what you're talking about.

 

[Barb_D]

I may be barking up the wrong tree with my thoughts about the being the condition or the result. (Do you know that idiom?)

I probably am. I know less about conditionals than I think I do about any other part of grammar. So just ignore me!

Or "If you'll be so kind as to ignore me, I'll fade out of this discussion" ;-)

 

[mmasny]

I may be barking up the wrong tree with my thoughts about the being the condition or the result. (Do you know that idiom?)

I probably am. I know less about conditionals than I think I do about any other part of grammar. So just ignore me!

Or "If you'll be so kind as to ignore me, I'll fade out of this discussion" ;-)

I know the idiom, it's one of my favourite :-D We should adopt it to Polish definitely.

Well, I am not very much into academic definitions of correctness (or maybe I am into them but I'm not bovvered by that - do you know the word? ;-)). You're an educated native-speaker so I want to know what your opinions about the language that I love are (it doesn't mean that if you were uneducated I wouldn't love to hear your opinions - I want to know everything, so it's doesn't really matter )

 

[MASM]

Sorry for the confusion mmasny, I meant to write what you said. I'll try to give some examples which are not expressing volition

We can use "will" in conditionals when expressing result:
" We'll go home now if it will make you feel better" (result)
"I'll give you 200 pounds if it'll help you to go on holiday" The second sentence is the result of the first one.

In polite requestst (I think Barb_D mentioned something before):
" I you will come this way, I'll show you your room"

Insistence:
"If you will leave things around the house, they'll get lost" (meaning a habit)

I hope that helps:-D

 

[mmasny]

I've never heard of it! Thank you. You explanation is satisfying, but of course if anyone has different explanations and more examples, please feel free to post them.

 

[mmasny]

One more thing that has gnawed my mind since yesterday. You said it was a mixed conditional and I never heard of it as such. Are you sure this is one of them?

 

[MASM]

Well, I think it might be a different structure. I'm not sure if it has a name on its own. I consider it a mixed conditional because it is the easiest way to classify it. I've consulted Michael Swan's book and he considers it an "If...will" category...

I've tried to search on the web but I only found this link: BBC World Service | Learning English | Learn it. and I think you might know the poster :-D.

I'm afraid I cannot offer much more help, you think too much about this anyway ;-)

 

[mmasny]

Well, I think it might be a different structure. I'm not sure if it has a name on its own. I consider it a mixed conditional because it is the easiest way to classify it. I've consulted Michael Swan's book and he considers it an "If...will" category...

Thank you!

I've tried to search on the web but I only found this link: BBC World Service | Learning English | Learn it. and I think you might know the poster :-D.

Haha, there are almost 40 million people here, and a pretty big percentage of them are Marcins :-D

I'm afraid I cannot offer much more help, you think too much about this anyway ;-)

I let my thoughts flow their way