A challenge for expert nitpickers!

[Neil McCauley]

...please deleted thread

 

[Nightmare85]

***Neither a teacher nor a native speaker.***

Hi,
You did a good job in my opinion. :up:
I would like to add something, though.

1)
Adverbs can also modify sentences.
Yesterday I made my homework.
Unfortunately, I have not met him again.

3)
I believe the correct choice is completents.

6c and 7 are a bit questionable, but maybe another member will help you there.

The rest seems absolutely clear to me. :up:

Cheers!

 

[Susan612]

Although the test appears not to address subject-verb agreement except perhaps in the proofreading section, in 6b I think the verb should be were, not was: The '70s were a...
In 6c it should be either ten minutes' drive or a ten-minute drive, butnot a ten minutes' drive.

 

[BobK]

:up: Also, in 7 - as you're in England I assume you want Br Eng - it should be 'locally-grown', 'flavour', and 'dietary'.

b

 

[Neil McCauley]

Thanks for the great replies. Just to clarify a couple of points:

• in 6b I think the verb should be were, not was: The '70s were a...

If I changed it to 'were' it would read 'The '70s were a great decade'. Surely this isn't right, because a decade is sort of a unit, made up of ten years.

• ten minutes' drive or a ten-minute drive, butnot a ten minutes' drive.

Could somebody clarify why this is true? 'The station is a ten minutes' drive from...' seems to work to me. Why does the addition of 'a' make it improper?

Thanks

 

[Nightmare85]

***Neither a teacher nor a native speaker.***

But it's 70s, which is plural.
The team was very strong.
They were a very strong team.

A great decade was the 70s.
The 70s were a great decade.

I don't know, but to me these examples sound fine.

Cheers!

 

[bhaisahab]

• ten minutes' drive or a ten-minute drive, butnot a ten minutes' drive.

Could somebody clarify why this is true? 'The station is a ten minutes' drive from...' seems to work to me. Why does the addition of 'a' make it improper?

Thanks

Because when you introduce "a" "ten-minute" becomes a compound adjective describing "drive". "A ten-minute drive". Adjectives are invariable (in English).

 

[Neil McCauley]

That's great, thanks. So just to be totally clear (sorry to labour the point so much), it should either be:

• ...is a ten-minute drive...

or

• ...is ten-minutes' drive...

But not "...a ten-minutes' drive..."

Is that right?

Many thanks!

 

[birdeen's call]

...is ten-minutes' drive...

I think the hyphen is incorrect here. "Ten minutes' drive".

 

[Neil McCauley]

Oh, well now I'm really confused! :-|

 

[birdeen's call]

Oh, well now I'm really confused! :-|

Well, I'm not a native speaker, so I can well be wrong. But in my opinion, "ten minutes" in "ten minutes' drive" is not an adjective. It's like "ten minutes" in "it lasts ten minutes". And as in this sentence you don't need the hyphen.

On the other hand, in "ten-minute drive", "ten-minute" is an adjective. As in "a five-year-old child".

 

[Neil McCauley]

Okay, so "...ten-minutes' drive..." is out of the question.

Are "ten minutes' drive..." and "a ten-minute drive..." both equally correct? Or is one much better than the other?

I'll get it straightened out eventually!

 

[BobK]

I think the hyphen is incorrect here. "Ten minutes' drive".

:up: BC is right.

Oh, well now I'm really confused! :-|

In 'a ten-minute drive', as bhaisahab said, ten-minute is a compound adjective. A compound adjective needs a hyphen.

In 'ten minutes' drive' "ten minutes'" is just a number and a noun, forming together an adjective phrase: 'What sort of drive?' - 'A drive of ten minutes.' That 'of' explains the apostrophe.

b

PS - having seen latest posts:
BC is right again ;-); and to answer the last question, they're both fine.

 

[Pedroski]

Since 'a ten drive' is nonsense, and 'a minute (time not tiny) drive' equally so, neither are adjectives. I suppose they are hyphenated to indicate that if you take one away, you must remove the other. In 'A long hard drive' you can take away either adjective, and not be left with nonsense.

Equally, 'ten-minutes' drive', you hve a problem if you remove 'minutes'', and that's what the hyphen tells us.

Where that leaves 'a very good book' I don't know, but I don't want to hyphenate every instance of 'very'.

 

[BobK]

...
Equally, 'ten-minutes' drive', you hve a problem if you remove 'minutes'', and that's what the hyphen tells us.

...

Arrgh - there's that hyphen again. 'Ten-minutes' is WRONG. I you're accustomed to writing 'ten-minutes' drive', you're accustomed to making a mistake. Please read what's gone before, to avoid making an error that's already been corrected.

b

 

[Pedroski]

I am anti hyphen, and would like to leave them all out!
I assume you're right, but I can't see your rational.

I agree, 'ten' is a number, fairly uncontroversial that. 'minute' is a noun. Neither can stand alone in 'a ----- drive'

*'a ten drive' *'a minute drive' 'a ten-minute drive' Is that why there is a hyphen?

minutes' is a possessive descriptor for 'drive', not a noun '*a minutes'. As such, it is an adjective
'A ten-minute drive' 'minutes' drive' 'ten minutes' drive'. So I suppose, you could compare 'ten minutes' drive with 'very hard drive'

Would that be your rational? Hope the sons of unmarried parents pass the test after all this!

 

[BobK]

My rationalE is that it helps to make sense. A 'high-level exam' isn't both high and level. In the case of 'ten-minute' as a compound adjective there is no possible ambiguity. But consistency in hyphenating compound adjectives helps both learners (who don't have to remember yet another load of exceptions - which boil down to a rather arrogant 'except when it's obvious - duh?') and readers (who can see at a glance what is a meaning-bearing pair of linked words).

b

 

[Pedroski]

How embarrassing! rationale: I'm sure I got it right in one language!
So: 'a high level plain' and 'a high-level exam' 'a ten-minute drive ' but not 'a ten-minutes' drive'. If you accept that 'minutes'' is an adjective here, that seems a little inconsistent. Remember, ten is not an adjective.

German makes it easy: just write the two words together: zehnminütige. Stressless!

 

[birdeen's call]

IF you accept, maybe. But why would you accept it? There are probably many definitions of adjectives, but to me it's a noun. It's a noun because it's in the genitive case. I agree that genitive nouns have an adjectival quality, but I don't think there's a reason for it to affect spelling.

 

[Pedroski]

'minutes'' is not a noun. You cannot have: '*a minutes'' or 'two minutes'' cf 'a minute' or 'two minutes. It is called a possessive determiner, such as 'John's' in 'John's house'.

This use of units of time in the genitive is known as the 'idiomatic possessive'

"Two hours' drive" is a construction that Garner calls the idiomatic possessive; others refer to it as a peculiar kind of personification."

“The idiomatic possessive should be used with periods of time and statements of worth.” [example given: “six months’ confinement”]—Bryan A. Garner, A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage 674 (Oxford 2d ed. 1995)

'fifty miles' worth of wire'

Actually, 'ten minutes' has been taken, and turned into the possessive 'ten minutes', then that is the period of time to drive. That is why I would like to see them joined with a hyphen. You can have 'ten minutes' but you can't have 'ten minutes'' because 'minutes' is not a noun.

Even more interesting is, 'ten-minute': if I say, dinner is ready in ten minute, you would say, 'you mean in ten minutes'. Why do we choose the singular here? Apparently the answer lies in the genitive forms of Old English.